Aubrey Chaves experienced a personal faith crisis as a young married adult relating to Church history and polygamy, and wondered if she should continue to be a member. Through a lot of questions and exploration, she expanded her faith and transformed her spiritual life. She now hosts the Faith Matters podcast with her husband, Tim. Tell me a little bit about who you are and what you do. Aubrey Chaves I host the Faith Matters podcast, and I’m on the executive board of Faith Matters. I also have a small cake decorating business — I do wedding cakes and special event cakes. That’s an extra creative outlet. My husband and I have been married for 17 years, but we’ve been good friends since we were 12. We live in Utah and are raising our four kids here, and we do Faith Matters together. Tim and I co-host the podcast together and help with all the other interesting projects. What brought you to Faith Matters? I experienced a deep faith crisis and serious deconstruction in 2011. I felt like I discovered that the Church wasn’t true and I needed to leave, and we had to go find the “true church.” That began an intense journey of reading and listening and talking to people. For a long time, it was just between Tim and me, sifting through what we learned, what we genuinely believed, and what we really didn’t. It was a scary decade, trying to decide what to do. We never got great answers. I have as many questions now as I did in 2011. But it has been a real transformation. What changed is that I let go of my obsession with certainty. I may never be able to prove that the Church is true, but I certainly believe it’s good and an anchor in my life. I had a great upbringing in the Church, there was nothing disturbing about it. I had good leaders who cared about me and were involved in my life in the best way. In 2011, Tim started reading Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, with a genuine desire to have a good answer for people who criticize the Church. He was disturbed by the history, and because it was written by someone who is active in the Church — it wasn’t somebody throwing bombs from outside. One day, he came to me and confessed with so much vulnerability that he wasn’t sure he had a testimony anymore. If I didn’t have any concerns, I would have said something like, “It’s okay, I will be your support person, we’ll work through this.” But what had been happening for me, that he did not know was as soon as we’d gotten married, I felt tortured by the idea of polygamy. I learned about polygamy in seminary with Jacob 2 — it was an exception, the real law is monogamy, so we won’t have to do it. That was enough to keep me from going any deeper. I could sit with the fact that someone else did and I just don’t understand. But when we got married and I had a taste of what an intimate relationship actually is, it exploded for me. I could not wrap my head around the fact that my great-grandmothers had to do this. Nothing was happening – we weren’t having conversations about it. But it was my intrusive thought for five years. I had to deal with the fact that polygamy was part of our history and not only was I uncomfortable, I didn’t want to become comfortable. It felt so degrading. How could a God who values women the same as He values men ask this of women? It was scary because the implication was, maybe the Church is not true. That was too big. I knew that God valued women, and then there was polygamy. That was the problem — it just didn’t work. I tried to imagine different ways that God could ask this but it never felt right. So I leaned on Tim’s testimony. “Okay, Tim is so certain, I trust him and love him more than anyone in the world. If he knows the Church is true, that’s enough to keep me here.” I had so much guilt that I wasn’t okay with polygamy but Tim was a rock. So the second he said he didn’t have a testimony, the dam burst for me. I was instantly in faith crisis. As soon as he confessed, we had a much bigger problem, because I also had a problem. Aubrey Chaves with Her Husband It was the first time I could imagine that maybe I had been wrong the whole time, maybe it was never right. Maybe this was a mess from the beginning and that’s why it didn’t feel good to me, and the Church isn’t true. It was terrifying and our life turned upside down. I read Church history obsessively and wept over Emma Smith and polygamy in Rough Stone Rolling. I read Doctrine & Covenants 132 and it sounded so traumatic and awful. That is not the God I know. If God had asked this of Emma, the God I know would have been comforting with unconditional love and reassuring that this is something beyond what she could understand. But it was threats and scary and felt abusive to me, I couldn’t see God’s voice or hand in those chapters. So I thought, then the Church must not be true – I had only an all-or-nothing context. We do say that all the time, “the Church is true.” It feels like certainty is of value. I started a big list of reasons why maybe it could be true and reasons why I was worried that it isn’t.I came across Faith Matters when I heard a podcast interview with Terryl Givens, talking about a lot of the serious questions I had. But he didn’t seem to be in panic mode like I was. He was settled and it introduced nuance into the way I could participate in faith—completely open, acknowledging hard questions, not all-or-nothing, not a lot of certainty. He was very open about problems and didn’t seem to be disturbed. He talked about belief being a choice, because if it wasn’t, God would be compelling us to have faith, which is the opposite of faith. It was a huge epiphany — I was waiting to be compelled and I was disturbed that God wasn’t compelling me. I had always understood faith as a list of correct beliefs, something completely out of my control and scary. This introduced me to the idea that faith could look more like trust and that was the beginning of the shift. We leaned into books that felt expansive—by Terryl and Fiona Givens, Adam Miller, Phil Barlow, Jon Ogden, Thomas McConkie., and found more people asking different questions and having those conversations. It wasn’t, is the Church true? It was, is the Church good? How to use the Church as a vehicle for growth and for connection? There was light again which was a relief, it felt soul expanding and peaceful, and I didn’t feel rushed. That’s how I recognized the Spirit. My energy was flowing into a new way of thinking about faith. There was time to be thoughtful and creative. There were bigger questions to ask, more than the very small black or white questions that I’d been so consumed by. It was slow and steady and thoughtful. They modeled something that felt more mature. They weren’t weighing pro’s and con’s the way I had, or defensive about my scariest questions, or afraid of my “dark night of the soul.” They brought so much love and patience and peace to the conversation that felt like a life work where you could continue in this place, wherever you were. I could stay in the Church and work here if I wanted to. It didn’t have to be all or nothing. I hadn’t heard of James Fowler’s “four stages of faith” yet, but I could see that their faith was different and I really wanted it for myself. I’d been in a stage where I was very comfortable and everything could be simply sorted into good or bad. But when something comes into your life that doesn’t fit neatly into a category, it can be disorienting and you could get defensive. There’s a lot of sadness, anger, and pain. That was my exact experience — nothing made sense anymore and I felt like I’d lost everything. I didn’t believe anything, and I felt confused and scared and mad. It was exciting to realize that this is a common stage of growth that people move through in their faith. That’s quite the backstory, but if you hadn’t experienced all of that, there would have been no need to change and find Faith Matters. Aubrey Chaves at Faith Matters Conference Around 2017, Terryl started hosting a podcast called Conversations with Terryl Givens. I was so excited because I was always eating up whatever we could find that felt expansive. We saw that he was sponsored by a foundation called Faith Matters and did some Google sleuthing. We were eventually able to connect with the Turnbulls, two brothers and their wives who founded it, and we said, “Please put us to work. We want to be in these circles. We need to be with people like you and whatever this is. We just want to be part of this.” They were very new and did need a lot of help, so we jumped in and helped with little things, small events, and Tim helped with the website. On Terryl’s podcast, it soon became clear that people wanted to hear him answering the questions instead of asking them as the host, so we stepped in as the people with real questions. We started inviting people who we’d been admiring from afar and asking them about things we were wrestling with. That was the beginning of what I believe is a spiritual practice. For so many years, I tried to put away my questions because questions themselves felt dangerous. It has become a spiritual practice to scan for what is alive inside of me, what is scary and bringing up emotion, and to try to articulate what the deepest question is. Saying it out loud is a spiritual practice all by itself. It has nothing to do with the answers that come after. It’s that we’re accepting our fear or sadness and as soon as we do that, they really are transmuted and to me, that’s what the scripture means of “peace that surpasses all understanding.” It doesn’t make sense—logically, bringing up the questions should make it worse and make the pain bigger. But if you can be deeply honest, God can be with you in that acceptance. A common phrase therapists use is, “If you can name it, you can tame it.” This sounds similar, because it’s outside of you to deal with, instead of in your soul taking up space. Yes. I’d always imagined that if you deal with something the “right” way, you can earn peace. But I believe now that the important step is saying it out loud. It was such an unexpected gift to practice doing that on the podcast. We’ve tried hard to ask the honest questions. The responses are beautiful and have enriched our life so much, but the spiritual practice of asking the hardest questions has been so healing for us. I don’t have great answers. I definitely have more thoughts and I don’t have any more certainty than I did in 2011. But I broke out of the dualistic way of seeing every question as black and white, and my faith has been so enriched by asking all the questions and having these conversations. We’ve had really rich discussions and it is soul food. I feel so much more connected to God, my community, and to my very highest self than I ever did when I thought I knew everything. In most podcasts, the host is the person giving information and the guest is there to supplement the host. The Faith Matters podcast seems to be the opposite—you and Tim have the questions and you bring in the experts because you want to know this stuff. You nailed it, that is real life. What a gift to sit down with people who have expertise or have thought about something for a long time. When we first started the podcast, I couldn’t talk about some topics without crying because they felt so heavy and scary. We had to edit a lot because I was always falling apart. I’ve now had years of just saying the thing, it’s been so healing and I trust the process. If I feel existential fear, a little zing of something scary, I say it out loud. There’s so much connection to be had when expressing a fear, you connect immediately with the people you’re talking to. You also connect with the people listening because you know someone else resonates with the question. A sense of belonging in your pain and fear is the most healing thing I can imagine. It’s so much more comforting than even an answer. How would you describe the Faith Matters community? I hear phrases like “progressive” or “nuanced” Latter-day Saints. Aubrey Chaves with Her Family I don’t have a great answer to describe this space. We steer away from “progressive” because it insinuates that we know how the Church is supposed to change, we’re ahead and just need everybody to catch up. I don’t think that resonates with people, and it’s also a political term. “Nuanced” is problematic for me because it implies half-in, half-out. And that’s not what I mean, even though I might see some core doctrines differently. “Expansive” seems to be a catch-all term. People who listen to our podcasts have maybe recognized some dissonance in the way they approach the gospel, and they’re looking for something creative, or inclusive, or expansive, that feels a bit new and different. It’s hard to describe because people are coming from so many different places. That’s also what I love about it. Brian MacLaren has become a mentor—he’s a former evangelical pastor who has done a lot of work in spaces like this, but outside of our tradition. He can speak to these exact conversations we’re having, but he’s a few decades ahead and from a different religious experience. At the first Restore conference, he explained the stages of faith, which he describes as Simplicity, Complexity, Perplexity, and Harmony. Harmony sounds like a beautiful place where you integrate everything, you have a lot more peace, and you’re not disturbed when everything feels perplexing. We had prepared to do a Q&A with him after his presentation and our question was, “how do you get an entire community into harmony?” Wouldn’t that be amazing if your whole ward was in harmony, everything’s integrated, and nobody feels threatened. But right before we got up, he said, “Having your entire community in harmony is not the goal. The goal is to have a four stage community. You want everybody to bring whatever they are, and feel totally loved and valued for the gifts of that stage. That’s what community should look like — you need all four stages represented.” In some ways, that’s been our goal. Maybe that’s why it’s so hard to describe Faith Matters. I hope people feel like we’re valuing their gifts in whatever stage they come to the table. If they’re happy in Simplicity, I hope that they feel totally valued and stretched, and that somebody in Perplexity feels totally valued and stretched. The most meaningful thing that we can do is help people find a sense of belonging in their faith community. Not necessarily that they’re in a new community with Faith Matters, but wherever they are, they have gifts that are important and necessary in the entire body of Christ. Whatever stage you’re in, we need you exactly where you are, you don’t need to change stages, and your stage is not better than anybody else’s. Wherever you are is exactly right. We need everybody. I think that’s where we sometimes get hung up. Person X thinks their stage of faith is the only correct way and if you’re not the same, you’re doing something wrong. I talked to Patrick Mason about this and he said, “Everybody thinks Zion is the stage where they are, Zion is everybody knows all the things, they all agree with you about the things that are messed up.” But that gets into an echo chamber. It’s validating and everyone could finish your sentences, but there’s no growth there. That is the most stagnant conversation to be in. But when you have conversations with people who genuinely challenge you — you respect them but totally disagree on some point, that creates serious tension that you have to work on. If that can be experienced at church, that’s the recipe for Zion. That’s going to bring us to our most whole imperfect selves, if we listen to somebody next to us who we disagree with, but we love and genuinely try to see their point. Even if we keep disagreeing, even if the conversation is only in our own mind, think of what that creates. It grows our soul. It matters so much but it’s so hard to do. If you don’t feel that you belong when you walk into a room, you feel like an outsider, you don’t feel safe in your own faith stage, then everything feels like a threat. This is why these conversations are so important to me—if you really believe that you belong, if you feel validated and secure somewhere, that gives you a bit more courage to into these places where you might feel more tension. You can practice stepping into those waters where you’re going to experience friction. If you start slowly, you stop feeling threatened. It feels like a growth place that is good for your soul, not tearing you apart. There is tension that can be destructive. But we’re trying to create belonging so people can feel safe exactly where they are and they can trust the process of growth and be confident in spaces where not everybody agrees with them. I think that’s how you learn to genuinely feel love. We have a cultural belief that says, if you’re uncomfortable, the Spirit is gone. But when we go to the gym for weight training, it physically hurts to push our bodies. Discomfort is not always bad. Aubrey Chaves with Her Daughter Discomfort is literally the precursor for any type of evolution. If there isn’t tension, there’s nothing to steer you in the direction of growth. It’s so weird that we picked that up, “I feel uncomfortable. Shut it down because that might be dangerous.” There are problems that we really do need to grapple with and it’s hard to have those conversations. Maybe that’s why I’m uncomfortable with the word “nuanced” — I don’t want people to think that I half-care. I care so much and I want the Church to be the very best version of itself. I am here and I’m part of it. I want to be here and totally inclusive. I want to shake it up. Part of the work of sustaining and being in community means that we’re calling out the things that don’t feel like God to us while also having the humility to know that we might be totally wrong. That’s the conversation I’m choosing to enter into. That’s the risk I’m willing to take — to get in the wrestle. I might be wrong, but this is me trying. I see a lot more men than women in the Faith Matters network. What’s it like to be a woman leading in this space? That is constantly on our minds, to amplify the voices of women. It seems like we’re overflowing with white men who are super qualified and reaching out, and they’re all amazing. But it’s been so much harder to find women to speak at Restore and to get our podcast numbers equal. I know they’re out there but it has taken a lot more effort. I think the optics are a problem and decision-making power is a problem but in my own life, women are very alive in God’s work. My every-day experience feels so alive with women doing important things. My world is full of women at work in the spirit, keeping our ward afloat, knowing what’s happening with our neighbors and children, they’re making things happen and doing projects that aren’t loud. They’re not on a stage but they’re so powerful, like a current flowing in our neighborhood. Women are finding power in ways that might be harder to see because it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re standing on a stage with a microphone, or doing something loud and big in the typical ways that we define power. I see that every day. That’s power but it’s harder to see. Visibility matters, but that’s a different problem than having no power. What encouragement would you give to women to step into their God-given power? Aubrey Chaves with Her Family Thomas McConkie talks about “following your energy,” and it puts things into focus so quickly — where my spirit is trying to move me? For a lot of my life, it was confusing to nail down, “What is a prompting? What should I be doing?” The “shoulds” were so loud that I felt almost paralyzed. The idea about following energy completely opened things up and gave me so much clarity — I know exactly what I should be doing next. Where is my energy naturally flowing? I have decided to trust that’s how the Spirit speaks to me; that’s my litmus test. If I follow what literally energizes me, I’m going to go where God needs me next. Sometimes it’s energy that feels a little scary but exciting. Other things that feel like “should” are so draining that it literally makes me feel tired. If you feel antsy to use your gifts, scan for what wakes you up, makes you feel alive, and energizes you. Whatever that thing is, start there. It might be a person you’re going to meet, or a little thing you’re going to write, or something you’re going to say. I think that’s often the way the Spirit speaks to our souls. This is your connection to God, so respect it. There’s a book called Care of the Soul by Thomas Moore. The way he puts it is — respect what the soul presents. Notice what lights you up. If you love cooking, your soul is presenting cooking and that needs to be part of your life because somehow that connects you to God. The things that come naturally to us are the truest things about our souls. It’s the thing God put in us and we came to this earth with, so it matters that we figure out what those things are. Sometimes we push it off as selfish indulgence or a hobby, or I can do this thing if I “earn” it. Moore says no, that’s your connection to God, so respect it. I’m going to follow what excites me and stirs my soul — that has been a trustworthy compass. At A Glance Name: Aubrey Chaves Age: 39 Location: Midway, Utah Marital history: Married Children: 4 Education: BA, Utah State University Occupation: Podcast host Languages spoken at home: English Favorite hymn: All Creatures of Our God and King Website(s) and/or social media: faithmatters.org Interview Produced by Trina Caudle

Amy Watkins Jensen lives in a California stake with a practice of having women leaders sit on the stand in ward and stake meetings to increase the visibility of women and partnership among all leaders. In 2023, the Area President instructed the California stakes to end women leaders sitting on the stand. Amy began the Instagram account “Women on the Stand” in response. Tell me about yourself and your background. Amy Jensen I was born in Chicago and lived there my entire life until I went to college. My parents are both converts to the Church. My mom was from small-town Indiana and when she left home, she moved to Chicago and started going to churches every Sunday. She had a roommate who she called a “jack Mormon” – baptized but didn’t live the standards. The roommate said, “You should go to the Mormon church, here’s where it is.” She didn’t go with my mom, just sent her on her way. My mom started meeting with the missionaries and had a clear answer to prayer that she should join the Church. Meanwhile, when my dad was 16, he was a high school dropout and was not going anywhere good very fast, and the missionaries tracted him. My grandmother was already a member of the Church, but didn’t practice because she was baptized when she was much younger in Arkansas and there was no ward or branch in the area. When the missionaries knocked on their door in Chicago, she said, “I’m already a member of your church.” My dad and some of his siblings got baptized. My dad served a mission, and when he came back, my mom had joined the ward and they met. They both found a spiritual home in the Church and in their own ways were saved by the Church. I grew up as a really happy member – there weren’t many members so it was very much a ward family. We hung out on the weekends, went to ward dances, participated in road shows, went to Girls’ Camp … It’s just what we did. Where are you now and what do you do with your time? I live in the Bay Area in California, and my husband Andy and I have three daughters. Two are in college, the youngest is home and a junior in high school. I teach Humanities at an all-boys middle school. It’s a day school for a professional boys’ choir – an art school. The academics are from 8:30 to 1:30, and then they have music until 4:30. They tour the world and sing with the opera. It’s a great, interesting place to work. I also have an amazing and supportive husband and an adorable mini goldendoodle who I love adventuring with. In my spare time I’m a writer. I have always loved to write about my faith, the Church, and how those things form and inform me as a human. It’s been great to do that a little more publicly and consistently lately on Substack and Instagram. What has been your experience around women in Church leadership and sitting on the stand? Amy Jensen with Her Family In 2016, I was the Young Women President in my ward. The stake presidency created a list of practices to be more inclusive of women, such as calling women leaders by their title of President, inviting women to speak on spiritual topics rather than just home and family, remembering to say “Heavenly Parents” in public settings, having women speak last in sacrament meeting, and invite women leaders to sit on the stand during sacrament meeting and stake meetings. At the next stake conference, women leaders were sitting on the stand. The wards handled it in different ways – usually just one, not all three leaders, sometimes the president, sometimes the counselor in a sort of rotation. Three stakes in the Bay Area of California within about an hour of each other started having women leaders sit on the stand around the same time but it was not coordinated at all. There was obviously some kind of spiritual movement happening. I did not love the idea of sitting on the stand. My husband had been a branch president for a singles branch when we had little babies and him being on the stand was a burden. I didn’t have a great feeling about the stand itself and in our ward council conversations, none of the other women wanted to sit on the stand either. But then I had a conversation with my teenage daughter: “Can you believe they want me to sit on the stand?” She said, “Why wouldn’t you sit on the stand? You do a lot of work that’s really important and it would be cool to see you sitting on the stand.” I stepped back to rethink things, and talked to the Young Women group about it: would that be important to them? The answer was a resounding YES, and please do it. I asked why it mattered and learned something I had not understood about this generation of girls – they are looking for evidence that they are important. They need to see it. They were my stewardship and this was what they needed. I started talking about it in ward council but the other two women were so against sitting on the stand, I could get no movement. I was released shortly after that because my husband was called to the bishopric, and he and the bishop tried to get women on the stand in our ward. We knew it was important to the young women, and it was women who were stopping it. We couldn’t get any buy-in. To be fair, they’re good women and I don’t blame them – I also didn’t want to do it, and I knew they weren’t having the same conversations with the Young Women. We got a new bishopric in 2021, coming out of the quarantine, and we were trying to re-form community. The new bishop called me to be the Young Women President again – the Spirit moved me that I should accept the call, and make it a priority for the Young Women to have women visible on the stand every week. This needed to happen for them. Amy Jensen with Her Husband The three women in the President positions felt that it would be best for our ward to always have at least one woman from the ward council on the stand. It could be any of the three of us, and we rotated by month so it didn’t feel like a burden. We still sat with our families most of the time, and our counselors could fill in as needed. We also read the upcoming announcements. It worked beautifully and the young women responded so positively. They noticed, they remarked on it, it was powerful to them. Almost exactly a year later, I was released because of a ward restructuring. And shortly after that, the news was handed down that women were not allowed to sit on the stand anymore in their leadership capacity. In the gap between that original stake list and when your ward started having women on the stand, did you hear from other wards about it? No one talked about it too much – it didn’t feel like some crazy, controversial thing. Some wards had women on the stand, some didn’t. I noticed the women on the stand at stake conference and I looked forward to it there. It felt right. Just an easy and empowering message that women are important. Women are essential. Women are leaders. We have united leadership. Equal partnership is incredibly powerful and important to building Zion. It was a message we received without people standing at a microphone to tell us we are important. That’s wonderful that it was empowering to young women to see women leaders on the stand. What about the other side to experience BEING on the stand? There are a lot of practical reasons to be on the stand, not just spiritual, and they’re all important and powerful. Looking out on the congregation was so beautiful. The view from the pews is so different from the view from the stand, because you can see the breadth of experience of those we serve. I could notice things. Questions would pop into my mind like, “I wonder if this family needs this thing? I wonder if there’s something we don’t know about going on in that pew?” I’d talk to the bishop – sometimes he would know about a situation, other times he didn’t and we should follow-up. Inspiration can be so much more readily received when you’re looking at the faces of the people that you love and serve. It was also an answer to my own prayers – knowing that our Heavenly Parents care about the young women as individuals and as a group. Sitting up there was something I could do for them that they needed spiritually – it’s a beautiful testimony to me of how much our Heavenly Parents care about the little things, and want to give us the things we need for our spiritual growth. For historical record, and for anyone who missed it, what happened with women leaders being told they could NOT sit on the stand anymore? It took some time to piece it all together, even from people who went through it in real time. In one stake, a statement was read over the pulpit that said, “This is the end of that practice and here’s why.” In my stake, nothing was spoken over the pulpit. I showed up to stake conference and noticed no women leaders on the stand, which was unusual because it had been such a long practice. But I was distracted because I was being sustained to a stake calling that day, and just made a mental note to ask the stake Relief Society president later. I wondered if the visiting general authority chose to have other people there and it was a one-off. It turned out that the visiting authority had communicated to our stake leaders that women leaders should not be on the stand at all at any time, only women participating in the meeting. I never did talk to the Relief Society president and I forgot about it. But a few weeks later, my bishop texted me, “Hey, I have some kind of heartbreaking news, wondering if I can come by the house.” He had to come as soon as possible, there was no way I was sitting on that. He told Andy and me personally, because he knew it would be devastating to me. We had worked so closely together in collaboration to get women on the stand in our ward. We had both felt spiritual confirmations that it was the right thing for our young women. So when someone in authority who we have never met or talked to, and he’s never talked to our young women, but he told us it was not a good practice for our ward…There are very few times in my life when I’ve experienced an almost audible heartbreak, so hard you can feel it and hear it. I don’t have words to tell you how devastated I was. The bishop had no answers. He didn’t know if it was from Salt Lake or some other area authority. He asked the stake presidency and they didn’t know either. They were trying to manage it and make sure this was really a thing – they didn’t understand. It was hard. Who was going to tell the young women? More “I don’t know.” I asked specifically about one particular family. The bishop had already talked to them because their oldest daughter was at the Stanford YSA Ward, and they announced it over the pulpit. She called her family, crying and devastated. Her 13-year-old sister in my Young Women group said, “What do you mean? Why?” It had been so important to her. Her reaction was to right away get to her computer and start typing a letter. Okay, well, then that’s what we have to do. A 13-year-old wrote the first letter. Where do we send those letters? Who do we address them to? I started to ask women and young women to write letters. I didn’t ask young men to write letters, but if they talked to me, I told them where to write the letters. I collected letters from women in the three stakes that were affected by this. We eventually learned it was the Area President who made the decision to remove women from the stand. My stake president collected and printed them all and sent them by mail to the Area President. Honestly, the whole stake presidency and bishopric have been so supportive, trying to understand, and trying to help us in any way they could think of. They did push back a lot, maybe not in the way that you and I imagine just telling the Area President, “No, are you kidding me?” It’s not as easy as dropping the mic and walking away. I have only positive things to say about the leadership of our stakes and wards. Amy Jensen We sent all those letters and there was no response. Eventually, Peggy Fletcher Stack wrote an article in the Salt Lake Tribune – I spoke to her for the article and I felt like there was no other way to get transparency to understand why the Area President did this. We did all the things we were supposed to do: talk to the bishop, talk to the stake president, write letters to the Area President. Then Peggy’s article, and it turns out we’re not the first area to have women taken off the stand. We’re just the first to be loud about it. Was this before or after you started the Instagram account? This is all before the Instagram account. Before the Tribune article was published, I thought that would be it. I’d done my part of getting transparency; people would know what happened. I think that happens often – issues stay in the dark because we get looped back into “talk to your bishop or stake president,” and it never goes anywhere. The article came out Thanksgiving weekend and I was visiting my sister. She asked how I felt, and I said, “I feel like I have to figure out what the next step is.” I knew it wasn’t the end, I had to do something else. I wrote an open letter to the women leaders of the Church – the general presidents of Relief Society, Young Women, and Primary. I wanted to speak to the women who do sit on the stand regularly, who are in charge, who are leaders and have a special understanding about sitting on the stand and could advocate for the women of the Church. I wrote the letter hoping to get a few hundred people to sign on, and that’s where the account started. How would other people know about the letter if I didn’t put it on social media? I was floored by the response. Thousands of people from all fifty states and 33 countries have signed the letter, and people still sign it. The account purpose has expanded since the first open letter. I post the voices of other women and men on the account – their experiences with the stand, in the Church, and their thoughts about the power of equal partnership and visibility. I post about being more united in our service, how we can build the body of Christ to be as strong as possible, that we can all bring our full selves to the body of Christ as women and men of the Church, as saints. Calling us all “saints” is better because our language genders everything. I try to overcome the language barrier by calling all Church members “saints.” We have a lot of gendered, “Men do this and women do that.” How about – we’re all Latter-day Saints, and every single one of us is important to the body of Christ with talents and gifts. Why are we telling people with beautiful talents and gifts to build Zion – no, that gift shouldn’t be yours because you’re a woman, so don’t bring it. And that gift is not supposed to be yours because you’re a man, so don’t give it to us, we don’t want that part of you in the body of Christ. I appreciate that your focus is not just about where women sit. It’s the deeper issue of equal partnership and all people bringing all their gifts to our community. So where are we and what’s next? The same Area President came again to our next stake conference, and I liked him. I want to make that very clear, I found him to be really open, really personable. I did not have a personal meeting with him, or any other higher leaders. That has been the path that other women and men have taken. That doesn’t feel fruitful to me, but we all have to do our part, it’s all the same work and we have different strengths.He did address the question of women on the stand. I appreciated that. He said that he felt there were too many people on the stand, that only those participating in the meeting should be on the stand. This whole thing is about how people are interpreting the general handbook. My stake president looked at the handbook and said, “There’s nothing in here that says that women can’t be on the stand and it will be good for our stake.” He felt that the Spirit told him to do what his people needed. The Area President has stewardship too and looked at it a different way. He also said his instruction for no women being on the stand was specifically for our area. In the Tribune article, the Church did not take any ownership of the decision as a whole, which is why women sit on the stand in other parts of the world. He told us that the issue is being looked at in the Priesthood and Family Council. It struck me earlier that it was women who opposed women leaders being on the stand, and I see opposition from women on Instagram. Not that every woman has to have the same perspective, but how do you respond to that? I want to differentiate this. The women in my ward who didn’t want to be on the stand – it wasn’t out of meanness, it was out of discomfort.When you put your voice out publicly, some people are awful. It’s both men and women – they’re dismissive and outright reject people’s thoughts, they question people’s testimonies and say it’s all about ego to want women leaders on the stand. It can be soul crushing that fellow saints say horrible things. My personal mission statement is to treat people with respect, regardless of how they treat me. I’m real fast with the block button, but I still try to be respectful and react in kindness. Questioning is not only important, it’s critical in our building and seeking. The outright horrible ones with gross and demeaning language are easy to ignore. The thing that is the most damaging and harmful is a dismissive and patronizing attitude. “Oh, she just doesn’t have a testimony. She’s struggling, bless her heart.” The attitude is, “We don’t want your efforts at building Zion so we’re going to push you aside. You can stay in the club but we don’t really want to hear your voice.” Those are the people I worry about more than mean people who call you names. We’ve developed a culture of dismissal and it is so damaging. It does not belong in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What is your intention with the Instagram account going forward? The Instagram account – regardless of what happens with women sitting on the stand in church meetings – has been a beautiful place and empowering for me personally, understanding that many women of all stripes are asking the same kind of questions. It’s not just Church members in the Bay area or Utah or Connecticut or whatever. It’s a worldwide conversation. It’s important to share the stories of saints who feel this movement of the Spirit to ask questions about equal partnership, how we can be more united in our service and leadership, and how we can become stronger by including voices that are often marginalized. It feels like a calling to me to be part of this work. Being a middle school teacher prepared me for this kind of thing. Conflict is a daily thing in a middle school, but not all conflict is bad. Friction moves things forward and we need it. We need it in society. We need it in the Church. It’s not about avoiding questions and conflict or revealing something painful. Silencing is different. That’s not the work of peacemakers. Conflict can build our community because we can use it to better understand each other. People use the word “conflict” when they mean “contention,” but they’re different. You can have conflicts without contention. You can disagree with somebody and love them more in your disagreement, because you understand them more. It’s all the work of peacemaking and discipleship, because the work of discipleship is peacemaking. It’s by small things and an Instagram account is a really small thing. I’m not inventing this kind of work. It has been done in different ways and different times throughout the history of the Church. I don’t know why I suddenly feel called to take part, but I do. In my own way, I’m trying to connect people who feel lonely in their questioning and give a space to be in conversation and be heard. It’s beautiful work. It’s hard work. It’s sometimes heartbreaking work. Until I don’t feel called to do it anymore, I’m going to keep going. Social media can be a powerful access point to people. It has been beautiful to use my gifts to build Zion and get into different spaces in a way I never did before. It’s been a blessing to use that part of who I am and what I care about. At A Glance Name: Amy Watkins Jensen Age: 51 Location: California Marital history: Married Children: 3 Convert to Church? (date): born in. Education: BA in Spanish and MA in Spanish Literature from the University of Utah Occupation: Teacher and writer Languages spoken at home: English and Spanish Favorite hymn: In our hymnal: Lead Kindly Light (not in our hymnal: Simple Gifts) Website(s) and/or social media: Instagram @womenonthestand Interview Produced by Trina Caudle

Georgina is an artist from Mexico City, Mexico, where the stereotype of an artist does not necessarily align with gospel living. She works to portray gospel principles through abstract art. Haz clic aquí para leer la entrevista original en español Please tell us a little about yourself and your work. Georgina Bringas I was really surprised by this invitation to talk about my work. I am very happy about this exhibition. I am from Mexico City, I live here, here I have my studio, my family, my work. In the “Work and Wonder: 200 Years of Latter-day Saint Art” exhibit, I have an installation made with tape that’s being displayed in the Church History Museum on Temple Square. My husband also has a piece on display. I’ve been a member of the Church for 40 years and I had never entered the Church International Art Competition. I felt like my work didn’t fit with the concept of art that the contest had, which is more social or more anthropological in nature, portraying customs and beliefs. But I wanted to try because I feel like my work is connecting more with the things that I believe and with my principles. So I got in touch with Glen Nelson. He wrote to me that he thought my work didn’t fit in with the theme, but I caught his attention and we began to write, and he had an exhibition at the Center for Latter-day Saint Arts in New York City. He invited us to a podcast and interviewed us, he asked us what we were doing in Mexico making art. It’s not something very common, less so church members and even less contemporary art. And based on this relationship, Glen invited us to this exhibition, which is very emotional for me. It connects with what I believe and what I do. That’s what fascinates me so much about your story – about you and your husband, that many times I think we know what it is to be Mexican, and what it is to be Mormon, and what it is to be an artist, but that combination of the three things – how interesting for you. And I love what you say about seeing the roots or reflections of your beliefs, what you value, in your art. Yes. I never thought my work fit in this contest, but I did feel that it had a connection with the gospel. I thought that maybe it is not the most traditional thing, but my work does have, to be honest with myself, a lot to do with what I believe. In the Church we are strange and in art we are strange because we are Mormons and a family. In Mexico, artists are very into parties and drinking alcohol, drugs. So, it’s interesting, but yes, my testimony has grown a lot because I’ve seen a lot of growth in my work through exhibitions like this. This piece displayed in the Church History Museum was the same one that Glen exhibited in New York. And the intention is for it to be something that shares this temporality. It is pieces of video tape glued together into a sort of curtain and in the back are fans that make it vibrate a little, so they are moving, but the movement is not too noticeable. The title is “Time Vibrates and Beats,” based on a quote from President Nelson about wisdom and a quote from a scripture in the Bible: “I pose the question once asked by Job: ‘Where shall wisdom be found?’ (Job 28:12.) Answer: It emanates from the Lord. Divine light and wisdom continue to increase when love for Deity grows. Where is wisdom? It pulses and surges with the Lord’s light of truth! With that light He lifts us toward eternal life.” (Russell M. Nelson, “Where is Wisdom?” October 1992 general conference) We are moving through time and space – it is emphasizing the time we spend on this earth. Every minute that passes, everything we are doing has a meaning. I am a seminary teacher now, so I tell the students what Alma says in Alma 34, that this life is one in which we have to learn that every minute counts. I added a little movement to the art piece so they could talk about time because time is a very important concept in the gospel to me. I feel that time is the way I have in space to demonstrate what I am and what I believe, what I want to learn. I feel that it is part of my mission as an artist is to reveal what time passing is like. It gives you an intention, like a clock, something that is marking each second. My husband and I studied art since university, and we have been exhibiting ever since. My husband was not a member of the church when we were married. His vision of art, his way of being interested me. When our first son was born, he was baptized in the church. For me it was something very coherent, because he already had a spiritual background. Ricardo and I don’t work together, but we support each other in our careers. I feel that there is a cliché of the artist who is very worldly, selfish, extremely corrupt, who submits to all the pleasures of the world because the artist must be sensitive. But I think we have learned to be more patient because maybe we are not going to sell many pieces, but it is something that I feel is a privilege. We don’t lack but it’s not like we sell a lot. In the church we have learned that as artists there are things we cannot do, things that do not interest me. My opinion is solid and real. I feel like it’s a privilege to have certain values and principles and my faith that help me to maintain myself even as an artist. My pieces talk about the same thing as they have for twenty years, just in different ways. They are based on something that is very important to me and is part of what I live and believe. Georgina Bringas Art How did you become interested in art, and how did you learn about the Church? My mother learned about the Church from a friend at work, and I was eight years old when we were baptized, my mother and my four siblings and me. My dad was also baptized, but he had problems with alcohol and died six months after we were baptized. I was too young to understand many things, but the gospel became like my home, how I felt safe. I felt calm even though many challenges arose. Later, around the age of 12 or 14, my sister’s friend was studying art and took her often to museums and they invited me. So, I went to a museum here in Mexico City and saw an exhibition by an English artist called Andy Goldsworthy, who created very small installation pieces. When I saw that piece, I had a spiritual impression that I wanted to do something like that. As time went by, I began to look for artists and learned about contemporary art. I knew I had a special connection. I realized that this was a difficult environment, and I knew that if I wanted to be an artist I had to also be clear about continuing in the Church. Halfway through my studies I went on a mission. I stopped because I needed a break, and it was an opportunity to have an even stronger vision that it was my path, but I also had to maintain what I’d felt at the end of my mission. I tried to bring my growth in the Church to my art. I feel that God has been there, that the Lord knows that I am interested in this and has helped me to have many teachings, many personal revelations through the work, many moments of tranquility of deep reverence while working. It represents a way of communicating and to be able to express myself. And that is something that I cannot be grateful enough for—I can sometimes look at my pieces and see something there that I think and believe. Sometimes artists tell me, “It has to do with minimalist concepts … visually it is very formal … they look like mirrors,” and they reference other artists. Yes, my pieces have that, but what I tell them is that they also have a spiritual significance for me. Just in these last few years I have begun to realize this, and I think this is the most valuable part of exhibiting my works, because it allows me to understand my art in this context. Do you learn things about your art when you have to put in words what it represents for you? Is it like a testimony that sometimes we find as we are sharing it? In my work I can understand the concepts and the material. In the case of videotape, why did I choose that material—because I like it? Because I find it beautiful? For hours you’re gluing threads of time to a frame, and I realize that it has to do with the passage of time. This seems very poetic to me. I believe that an artist has questions, and the questions are resolved with work. Sometimes it gives rise to other questions, and I like this because I believe that in the gospel it is the same. Sometimes we do not have clarity, and we do not have the answer, not all the knowledge at once like in a vision. It comes in droplets and impressions. I compare my work a lot with the gospel, it makes it understandable. All members should be artists because it is a very personal process, the way of working is self-reflective. It involves asking questions, we are always evaluating, and I just feel that the gospel is like that. Taking the sacrament is an evaluation every week. We are asking where am I? What am I missing? What have I learned? This process happens a lot in art. They are very parallel. I don’t know if I understand art through the gospel or the gospel through art, but I think the two are symbiotic. Georgina Bringas Art In reality, art involves knowing yourself, and it is the same with the gospel. By understanding art, I can see the perspective of others and that is very interesting. Contemporary art can have many interpretations, but it is very valuable when one gives it a personal interpretation. I realize as an artist we can talk about transferable things, but also learn from them. I think that art has many possibilities to speak at a sensory, emotional level with another language, I like that too. I like that, too, that it’s another language. You can communicate with people all over the world who don’t speak Spanish. When they see your art, you can communicate with them without words. Exactly, because I think it’s a language, it’s like Italian. I tell my children maybe you and someone else don’t understand something the same way, what matters is the impression it gives you. What the artist says doesn’t matter either. The impression it gives me matters. It communicates at the level of emotion and feelings and is a moldable language. It has a lot of range. I have really liked understanding my work through what I believe because it excites me to think that I can share. I focus on making my work very clean, having very few elements so that I can be precise and share a message. You said before that you doubted whether you fit in with other art of the Church, but now that you are talking, contemporary art fits in even more with a church’s collection because it touches us on an emotional level. I have taught classes on how to understand contemporary art, and when we go to a museum, adults say, “I don’t understand it, what does it mean? What are you teaching me? How should I feel?” With children, they don’t have that prejudice of interpreting and asking. Art makes us humble. In front of a work of art, we have to observe. Maybe I don’t understand it, I don’t recognize it, but that doesn’t mean I can disqualify it. If we are attentive enough, art can teach us a lot about the human condition. Not waiting for someone to tell me how to feel, to tell me what I have to do. It requires contemplation and getting to know oneself. I am now teaching the 14–18-year-olds in seminary, and I tell them this gospel is not just to sit and listen to. The gospel is like Moroni’s question, go and ask. No one is going to tell you the truth until you approach. When we make that effort, an answer will come. I’m not trying to weigh what I do on this grand a scale, but sometimes life requires us to go the extra mile to find something. In art there is a process as a viewer too – one has a certain process to contemplate the works. Maybe it never ends. In the gospel, everything is through processes. Nothing is immediate, nothing is going to happen right away. I think that helps me understand that also in my work as a mother, as a daughter, as a sister, all these processes are part of me, and I cannot deny them nor can I speed them up. Georgina Bringas with Her Art Is there anything else you’d like to say to the sisters of the world about how you have found your path of discipleship of Jesus Christ? As a mother, missionary, leader, and with my callings, I have learned that the Lord teaches us in a very special, very loving, very delicate way. He knows that we can perceive things between the lines. I have learned the same in art. If we give ourselves the opportunity to understand something that seems like a challenge, we can find ways to access simple signals through our heart and mind. We need to be open and remain perceptive. We need to avoid disqualifying even that which seems completely different from what I like or what seems pleasant. Sometimes we need to broaden our view to understand deeply and extract something that will enrich us. I tell my children in the museum that in each piece we must find something that is valuable. The same for each person and each situation. I believe with sincerity in my heart, art can be a tool to make us more humble and closer to God. AT A GLANCE Name: Georgina Bringas Age: 50 Location: Mexico City Marital history: Married and sealed 2017 Children: 2 Convert to Church? (date): Yes, January 1985 Education: Bachelor degree Occupation: Artist and teacher Languages spoken at home: Spanish, a little bit of English Favorite hymn: In our hymnal: If I Listen With My Heart Website: www.georginabringas.com Produced by Jenny Willmore

Susan Jackson shares her story of growing up in Utah, raising a large family, and volunteering extensively, including teaching seminary and serving in various Church roles while living across the U.S. and internationally. She also details her unique experience volunteering at the Kirtland Temple with Community of Christ, the deep relationships she built there, and her emotional response to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints purchasing the site. What’s the general overview of your story? Susan Jackson I grew up in Pleasant Grove, Utah, one of ten kids. I met my husband while he was at BYU and I was at Utah Valley University. We have six children, 5 in-law kiddos, and five grandchildren. The majority of my time has been spent in volunteer work and raising my family. I’ve served in many different positions in the Church. Currently, I teach early morning seminary, which I’ve done for four years in this ward. I also taught seminary two other times, in Texas and overseas. We’ve lived all over the US and overseas because of my husband’s job—he’s in technology and installs large software packages for companies. We moved to Ohio, 45 minutes from Kirtland, in 2002. We were sent on assignment to China 2014 to 2016, and Germany 2017 to 2019. We returned to our home in Ohio just in time for Covid. Where were you in China and what was the Church experience there? We were in Shenzhen, the first city in mainland China across the border from Hong Kong. I loved our time there. I learned a little Mandarin. We were there for two years, and it took me a year just to isolate sounds and understand some words. I still can’t speak it but I can understand a little bit. I absolutely loved church in China! In a tiny branch, you become family. Our youngest two children went with us and had a close-knit youth group, and we treasure those friendships. To attend our branch, you had to have a foreign passport – we could not allow Chinese nationals to come. It’s hard to turn people away and not talk about the gospel – it’s the opposite of what I was taught growing up. My husband was in the branch presidency and once a month, they read a letter over the pulpit to remind us of no proselytizing to Chinese nationals, not even in private conversations. If someone did have a foreign passport and wanted to learn about the Church, we could teach them. I was a set-apart missionary in Shenzhen, China to teach women who came from Africa. They wanted to learn! I had a companion and every day, we taught them the gospel. It was one of my callings, and you have a lot of callings in a tiny branch. During our time there, most missionaries in Hong Kong spoke Cantonese. Some were assigned to learn Mandarin to teach Chinese nationals who had been introduced to the Church in other countries. They could go from China to Hong Kong, be taught and baptized, and go back. There was an LDS branch in Shenzhen of Chinese nationals who had joined the Church elsewhere in the world, but because of the agreement the Church has with the Chinese government we could not interact with them at all. We didn’t meet any of those members unless we were outside of China. I met one of those sweet sisters serving in the Hong Kong Temple. Just before we moved there, there was a change that if a person who was a Chinese national joined the Church outside of China and went back, they could teach the gospel to specific family members – parents and grandparents, children and grandchildren, aunts and uncles and cousins, and they could be baptized in China. Prior to that change, they couldn’t teach the gospel to any family at all. What was Church like in Germany? Similarities or differences? Church in Germany was wonderful! Part of my heart is still there and will always be. We were there for two years and attended a German ward. Missionaries translated for us, so we wore headphones to sacrament meeting. After a year, I was called to be the stake Young Women president. It was a scary and fantastic experience. I was a fish out of water, but started to learn German. I visited each of the units and gave a presentation on President Nelson and Sister Nelson’s Hope of Israel worldwide youth devotional. I translated my message through Google Translate, back and forth from English to German and German to English several times because Google Translate is great, but it isn’t always right the first time. I got a stamp of approval from German speakers, “Oh, this makes sense. It’s good.” It was wonderful to speak in meetings that didn’t have a translator – the miracles of the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation of tongues are real. It is the Spirit that carries. Even when you’re speaking the same language, there can still be an understanding barrier. The Spirit can break through all of that. It was my privilege to witness that. Our experience was living in a more reserved community, but we were blessed with deeper connections. In the US, when people ask how you’re doing, we usually reply, “I’m fine,” almost without thinking. In Germany, if I asked how people are doing, I would get a genuine response: “Well, my mother is in a nursing home and she’s not doing well. I had a really hard week. My son just left on his mission and (with tears welling up in her eyes) this is my first missionary and I don’t know how to handle that.” I realized I need to be more committed when asking someone how they are. Their openness was humbling and we developed trusting friendships. It was inspiring to get to work with the youth and watch as they really had each other’s backs. We’ve experienced this in other parts of the world, but this small group was very unified – loving and caring and genuinely concerned about each other. You live in Ohio near Kirtland – what did you do at the historic sites and how did you become involved? A few years ago, I took my daughter’s in-laws to visit the temple in Kirtland, built in the 1830s by the early Church members, and has been owned and maintained by the Community of Christ for over 100 years. While we were in the bookstore, I talked to a woman who was working at the register. I learned of a relationship between Community of Christ and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In the summer, Community of Christ invited former missionary couples who had served at Historic Kirtland to come back, live in historic homes, and give tours of the temple. I told her that I am local and asked, “Can I volunteer?” She submitted my name and I got a call to interview with the site director, Roger Rose, a Seventy with Community of Christ. After the interview, he said, “You’re in, kid!” He clarified that their team (only members of Community of Christ) would do the tours of the temple, and that was fine with me. I was just happy to be there!I made the 45-minute drive to Kirtland once a week, and with Nancy Cervi (Evangelist for Community of Christ) I cleaned out flower beds and buildings. Most of my time, Nancy and I volunteered in the bookstore – took care of inventory, paperwork, tagged items, organized, and worked the register. Right at the beginning, I was given a key to the visitor center and codes to access the back offices and library. Just a few months later I was given a key to the temple. I felt so honored that they trusted me in such a short time and I didn’t want to do anything to betray that trust. On my first day, it was the fall season, which tends to be busy, and I met several volunteers. Most were Community of Christ but two were Latter-day Saints, Lanny and Maxine Waite, who had served a full-time mission in Historic Kirtland during Covid and were invited by Community of Christ to come back. In my conversations with the volunteers, I was called “Cousin” by one of the men volunteering from California. I thought this was great! We may be part of two different churches, but we all have a connection to Kirtland, especially the temple. After several months, Roger came in with a big stack of papers and asked, “Have I given you this paper before?” He had given me several books and stacks of paper to read, so I wasn’t sure if he had or not. It was the script for the tour of the temple! I was speechless. We sat down together and went over the tour. He told me, “There are not open volunteer tour positions here. You just stepped on the flypaper at the wrong time.” The woman whose place I took was from Community of Christ who had been serving there but had an unexpected event come up and had to leave. It was then that I came to the visitor center with my daughter’s in-laws. Dumb luck is my superpower! But truthfully I know it was a blessing. Anyway, as I started my tours, I wanted to make sure their trust in me was not misplaced and I stuck to the script. It was beautifully written. There’s so much shared history between our two churches, fun little tidbits that make it more personal and link the generations. Of course I made mistakes, but I was lovingly mentored by Nancy along the way. Understandably, there were directions I was given about the differences in our beliefs. As a guide, the direction was to “not limit our faith story to one perspective. Diverse viewpoints bring richness to our understanding of God’s movement in our sacred story. Of course, historians will come to different conclusions as they study. Therefore, it is important for us to create and maintain a respectful culture that allows different views on history.” This created an environment for respectful discussion of differences in beliefs. In the Kirtland Temple tour script, there are quotes directly from the Doctrine & Covenants that applied in the various rooms. Beautiful experiences. I talked about the Savior visiting the temple on the first floor, the miracles that happened during the dedication, Joseph Smith seeing his brother Alvin in heaven. The script was specific in that event of it being “heaven.” This is one of those differences in beliefs. If someone asked about the “celestial kingdom,” I could clarify and talk to them after the tour. What are some of the differences in beliefs? As I’ve asked that question, the main understanding I have is that we were the same church until Nauvoo and the practice of polygamy. Another point is that women hold the priesthood in Community of Christ. A wonderful woman I worked with, Nancy – we’ve had really good conversations and she said, “One of the big things is polygamy and we didn’t ever believe that Joseph Smith had any wives other than Emma.” Ironically, when I was growing up, that’s all I knew too — that Joseph Smith’s only wife was Emma. I’m sure the information was out there but it wasn’t openly talked about. I don’t know that I’ve met a more service driven and faith filled person than Nancy – she dedicated eleven years of her life to the temple. After her husband passed away, she was invited to go to Kirtland and do tours for one year. That turned into eleven. Those beautiful Kirtland grounds are her flowers. She knows every flower, every plant, she has little markers, and that has been her life. Every time I got there, she was out working with her wheelbarrow, pulling weeds and trimming things and every bit of it has been a labor of love. Community of Christ opened the temple regularly to the community. Some of my favorite events were the Thanksgiving service, Christmas Eve service, and the Emma Smith Hymn Festival. One of the newest events was to commemorate the March 27, 1836 temple dedication fittingly held on March 27. Nancy invited members of the community and local churches to come and assigned reenactment parts to various individuals. Last year, my husband and I represented Parley and Thankful Pratt. In that first dedication, Sidney Rigdon spoke for two and a half hours! Gratefully, we only had one and a half to two minutes for each person. A senior missionary represented Joseph Smith’s brother Don Carlos, who blessed the sacrament for that dedication. The missionary talked about the heaping loaves of bread on the sacrament table, enough to pass the sacrament to the 1000 people in attendance for that dedication. The original dedication was seven and a half hours long and not everyone who wanted to attend could be inside the temple. So a second dedication was held the following Thursday. That was reported to be about nine hours long and Edward Partridge said it was “longer and better than the first service.” The following Sunday in 1836 was Easter and the temple was again filled with a thousand people. That was when Joseph and Sidney Rigdon went to the Melchizedek priesthood pulpit and the veils were drawn, and the Savior appeared and said He accepted this house. Last year on my wedding anniversary, I was in Kirtland and my husband was traveling. I asked if I could just sit in the temple and be there at the time that my sealing had taken place many years ago. My sweet friends let me have that private time in the temple alone. I reflected that this is where the keys were restored for eternal marriages. It was a very special experience that I would never have had if not for these wonderful people of Community of Christ giving me the chance to volunteer. I’ve been in the basement of the temple, I’ve stood up on the bell tower, I have been in every nook and cranny of that building. Nancy and Roger would give “basement to bell tower tours,” starting in the visitor center to get a more in-depth understanding of those treasures in the museum, then over to the basement. As we went up the first flight of stairs, there are cubbies to look in and see the rubble stone construction. We climbed in there and sat on stools. Nancy said, “When I come here, I hear voices. I hear voices of the past. I hear tired, devoted saints sacrificing and giving everything to the building of this temple.” I love Nancy’s tours, I’ve always felt a beautiful spirit. On March 5, 2024, it was announced that the LDS Church bought the Kirtland Temple and other historic properties from Community of Christ. What was the reaction to the property sale? Kirtland Temple I was surprised at how hard it was for me. Before I volunteered there, before I met these dear friends, I would have said, “Yes! It’s about time we get the temple back.” But I felt an immediate loss. The temple and visitor center were typically closed in January and February – Nancy and I had been working to get the bookstore ready to open on March 1 but I got a call saying not to come because it wasn’t going to open until the end of March. This was strange. I asked what was going on. Nancy didn’t know. When I heard the news of the sale, I sat on the stairs in my home and just sobbed. Even though I was there just once a week, these people had become family to me. My sweet friend Nancy didn’t know about the sale until that morning and her home was on the property sold to the LDS Church. I found myself sobbing randomly and felt like I had experienced a death in the family. I’m grateful that it was initiated by Community of Christ, because I think that’s helpful with the transition. But right now, my heart is hurting. The evening of the sale, my husband and I went to Kirtland and sat on one of the benches outside. It was a very misty night. I took pictures of the temple almost in shadow. We sat on the grounds and cried. I could see the lights inside the temple as structural engineers inspected the building. I could see lights in my friend’s home — she can see the temple from her kitchen. I knew that it was hard for her to see lights going on and off in the temple. She was the main caretaker of that building, and to have somebody she doesn’t know inside … The locks were changed quickly. I still have my key to the temple and visitor center but they don’t work, and I felt an immense loss. Those first days were really hard and I found myself randomly crying. My kids asked, “What’s wrong, Mom?” To them and to a great many Church members, this was a prayed-for momentous event. I tried to put my feelings into words: “I feel like the prophet just died and a new prophet has been called. I know it’s right. I know he’s called of God, but I am mourning the loss of that prophet that I loved so much.” I was mourning the loss of the relationships that I had made during my time with Community of Christ and friends in Kirtland. It was uncertain. I didn’t know what the days ahead would be. The next Sunday, my husband and I attended church with Nancy and Roger at Community of Christ. In their chapel, there’s a window behind the podium that overlooks the temple. The curtains were closed that day. Boxes of tissues were thoughtfully placed on each bench. Everything they do is about service and living a Christ-like life. After the service, we were invited to meet in their kitchen area, have some Joseph Smith rootbeer and make rootbeer floats. The time was to share our experiences with each other about the temple. I met new people from their congregation — a woman who’d been married in the Kirtland Temple, another who would take her little Sunday School class over and have her lesson in the Kirtland Temple. Everyone had so many personal experiences. One of the groundskeepers was sharing his feelings and he said, “Something I know is that is God’s house.” They were so kind to me in this transition even though it was their world turned upside down. The LDS Church re-opened the temple quickly, in just a couple of weeks, and one reason is because the head of the Church History department heard that Nancy had planned the commemoration of the dedication, and he wanted to make sure it was open for her. The night of the commemoration I spoke with President Scott Barrett, Historic Kirtland Site director now over the temple as well. He said, “If I asked you to come and volunteer here, would you do it?” In a heartbeat! I said I’d be so excited, I’d have to be careful not to get a speeding ticket. (Well … to date I have gotten two!) I am now a service missionary with Family Services through my stake. I was invited to volunteer at the temple visitor center and wear my missionary name tag. The full-time missionaries do tours of the temple. The number of visitors went up dramatically in those first few weeks, mainly because it was spring break, and we also experienced the path of totality for the April 8 solar eclipse. I was there the Friday before the eclipse and 450 people went through the temple, the same number that visited Historic Kirtland. The next day was over 500 people, and the day of the eclipse, they had 650 people visit the temple in four hours. People said they had always wanted to come to Kirtland and that was a great time because of the eclipse, so they took that opportunity to make that their destination. My understanding is the Community of Christ has a certain number of events that they can hold for free in the Kirtland Temple, and those will continue to go forward. I don’t know what’s on the calendar, and the sale has changed some things. I am certain they will juggle the schedule and get it figured out. One of the larger activities was a series of family reunions for the John Johnson family, the Isaac Morley family, and the Whitney family, held in June 2024. They were sponsored by the stakes in Kirtland, Cleveland, Akron, and Youngstown in conjunction with Community of Christ and the City of Kirtland. What an incredible collaboration! I wonder if we could talk to those who lived in the 1830s, could they even imagine an event coming about. It was a great success! What’s your overall feeling about volunteering in and around the Kirtland Temple? It has been an absolute privilege to meet and have friendships with members of the Community of Christ. I have what I call my “Snotty Self-righteous Side.” Before, it was this side that saw our two churches as “us versus them.” I am embarrassed to admit that. Being in this place that means so much to both of our churches, those that had the charge and care for the Kirtland Temple opened their doors and arms to me – an outsider, not a member of their church. They took a chance on me, saying that they needed my help, but I am the one that truly needed theirs. I’m so grateful to them for giving me the opportunity to grow. Because of them, I learned that I have ancestors buried in the Kirtland Cemetery in the shadow of the temple. Because of them, I learned that I am a 5th great granddaughter of John Tanner. Because of them, I have been blessed to walk in the footsteps of my ancestors, feel a closeness to them, and find my roots. In seminary, I’ve taught the doctrinal mastery scriptures that we “judge not that ye be not judged,” and “all are like unto God.” Do I really believe that? Am I really practicing that? Or am I putting exceptions on it? Not once did they treat me like anything other than friends. I reflect back to that first day that Community of Christ volunteer said, “Well, you know, we’re cousins.” These wonderful people scooped me up and made me part of their family, and I am eternally grateful. “These were days never to be forgotten” – Oliver Cowdery At a Glance Name: Susan Jackson Age: 56 Location: Medina, Ohio Marital History: Married Children: 6 Convert to the Church: No Education: Attended UVU, Dixie, and BYU studying Elementary Education Occupation: Homemaker Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: Where can I turn for peace Interview Produced by Trina Caudle

Neylan McBaine founded the LDS Women Project and published the first interview in September 2009. She has since worked on multiple projects such as publishing the book “Women at Church” in 2014 and leading the non-profit Better Days 2020. She continues to promote women’s visibility and empowerment in the Latter-day Saint sphere. What does being a Latter-day Saint woman mean to you today? That’s a great question. I think the easiest way to define it for me right now is in comparison to what it used to mean for me. When I was younger, it meant a sort of clear-eyed loyalty to the institution because I loved being a part of the institution. I loved what it brought to me in terms of activities and the physical infrastructure – a place to go, to be with my people. It also brought me a virtual family that I didn’t have when I was growing up in a very non-LDS area, with a small biological family of my own. I would say, it used to mean a very clear dedication to the institution and charismatic spiritual experiences. Neylan McBaine Both of those elements have changed pretty dramatically now that I’m 48. Both of those extreme levels have been muted, but there’s a third element that’s risen, which is my personal integrity. I define that as being the kind of person that I want to be and that I like being. I’m taking the inputs of good principles from lots of different sources, sorting through them, and deciding what is healthiest for me and what’s healthiest for my family in the long run. It means my membership in the Church is defined by personal agency-driven behavior and set of beliefs, not just what the institution tells me. That’s not to say that I’ve walked away from the institution or from seeking charismatic experiences. Those are definitely part of my framework. I think, for me, the difference from some other women who reach my stage in life is that the personal integrity pillar still generally works within the framework of the institution. For others, at this point in their lives, it doesn’t. I get that, and that’s fine, but for me, it still works. The reason it works is because I’ve modified my relationship with the institution. I’m more at a distance from it, more judicious about how I interact with it. I’m more clear-eyed about where it gives me value and where it doesn’t. I’m more honest about its flaws. For me, its flaws, to a point, are faith-promoting because I appreciate the vulnerability and authenticity that comes with understanding those flaws. My husband says, “If there’s just anything good in this, that’s better than a lot of other institutions that we belong to, right?” And so what is that percentage of goodness? Is it five percent goodness? Is it ten percent? Is it sixty percent? Everybody has a different calculus as to what the institution needs to offer them in order for that to remain something of value, and for us to be able to put up with its flaws. Being a Latter-day Saint woman at this point means taking the good, being honest about the bad, and having the integrity and the confidence in myself to discern those within the same institution. I can hear a counter-argument that you are taking a buffet-style approach – picking and choosing the parts you want. Does it feel that way to you? Or is it more of a wrestling with things? I’m going to choose how my faith looks. Neylan McBaine I feel like what I’m doing is stripping away the fences we’ve built up around the true principles. When I say that I can have integrity within the institution, what I’m saying is, I’m committed to the core principles. They look a little different in my life than they might in somebody else’s. You know, in much of the 20th century, the idea of correlation, retrenchment, or the growth of the global church required a level of uniformity that was preached from the pulpit. You had to be all in. That’s where we get that level of conformity that really peaked in the 20th century. It was thought to be a complete lifestyle. I’ve seen too many examples of people living in very creative ways, while remaining dedicated to the core principles, to believe there is one way to live the gospel. That’s partly why the LDS Women Project is so close to my heart: in order to gain confidence in how to do that, how to expand the way that looks, you need examples of other people doing that. It’s not something that you can conjure out of your imagination when all the forces are telling you to be just one way. I want to talk more about personal integrity. I’m curious where that comes from. There is a lot more elasticity in the institution than people often claim there is. The thing I find most tragic is when people feel like they need to leave membership in the Church to explore different principles and different modalities of religious expression. And I know so many wonderful people who live both and model where they’re active at church, but then they’re also a certified energy healer, or whatever the alternative identity is. We have the ability to expand in that way. Or they’re a member of the Church, and they’re also a female chaplain at a local hospital. Or an active member and an LGBTQ advocate. We can hold all of that. We should be celebrating that. The ultimate tragedy is when people feel like they have to cut ties in order to do that kind of thing. And that’s where the principles have contorted into practices that are limiting and conformist, rather than expansive and agency-driven. I think the counter forces are promoting a feeling of irrelevance in young women in the Church – that the Church is irrelevant to a modern life. That is a powerful force that I would love to see the Church trying to tackle more than they are. We’re a global institution, and our leaders worry about what’s happening in Africa as much as they worry about what’s happening in Sandy, Utah. That emphasis on the global church is understandable, but I also think that it’s having pretty serious repercussions for those girls and women who are growing up in a postmodern society. We’ve lost a lot of the positive cultural forces that bound you and me when we were growing up, those forces that helped our church membership remain highly relevant while we were still developing our testimonies. What would be an example of that? Neylan McBaine with Her Family Roadshows! We laugh, but they are symbolic of a whole communal practice that we’ve largely lost. Let’s talk about Relief Society for a moment. There’s nothing about Relief Society right now that’s any different than what the men do at church. There was originally a reason for the Relief Society to exist, essentially, aside from just putting the women in a room by themselves. But we’re not magnifying that opportunity anymore. We don’t have Visiting Teaching anymore. We don’t have our unique curriculum anymore. We’re talking about the same general conference talks as the men. We don’t even have names for our Young Women classes anymore. We don’t have Personal Progress anymore. We’ve lost a lot of cultural texture that was connective tissue while people were growing their testimonies. It’s harder now to have a sense of a larger community that you’re a part of, which was really important to me growing up. Our global leaders have so many responsibilities. What kind of responsibility do we have, or what can we do, in our own wards? Is that really a place where we can continue to be optimistic? Does the core church experience happen on the local level? When my husband and I talk to our kids about their membership in the Church, that’s where we always start. We say, “Listen, in this day and age, to have a community like this, that’s throwing you together every single week with people who are literally on their deathbeds and have raised full families and been married sixty years, or whatever it is, there are very few places in the modern world where you are part of something like that, with all ages, all different demographics, political persuasions.” You’re really vulnerable with people in those settings. They’re literally bearing their testimony to you. And you’re getting to know them in very unique ways that their employers don’t know, and probably sometimes their kids don’t even know. It’s just a remarkable, remarkable thing. There’s a lot of good there. In a lot of ways, don’t mess with it. And in the last ten years, I’ve met a lot of people who aren’t bothered by anything that goes on there. It’s a great model. It works really well, and they get what they need out of it. And then I’ve met a lot of people for whom it’s a really uncomfortable experience. Because they only see men on the stand. They hear things that are, you know, ignorant or close-minded, in their perspective. Not aligned with the way that they see a community of Christ behaving. And I get that too. I have discovered over the last ten years that there are a lot more people who are fine with the way things are, than those who are not, specifically on gender issues. So what do you do about that? Do we say, well, the majority rules? If you’re not fine with it, then too bad, go elsewhere? Or perhaps we say, “This is the way God wants it to be.” Or it doesn’t seem to be broken, so we don’t need to fix it. Or we don’t have an opportunity to do anything differently because this is the way it’s always been done. Or it’s coming down from Salt Lake this way. Or we just don’t have the authority or the power. I’ve really struggled seeing this kind of inertia, this unwillingness to try new things and seek for improvements. Because if someone is going to church, they really want it to work for themselves. You’ve got a very intimate, vulnerable part of you invested in this. I don’t think people are going to church and being like, “This sucks, I’m out of here,” very cavalierly. People try, they work really hard to make it work. Those people are looking for innovation. They’re looking for their church organization to take in the best practices of other places in their lives that are doing things well. There are a lot of best practices out there. Organizational behavior specialists in every single industry show that results improve when you have men and women working together in the room where decisions are made. Every modern study says that results change and improve when you have diverse decision-making bodies. And yet, there’s just this wall separating the way we do things in the Church from the way we live and work and do things in the world. My bishop right now does a great job of breaking down this wall. He’s the CEO of a major company. He’s bringing in best practices all over the place, and it’s so fun. He’s innovative. He’s changed the structure of our sacrament meetings, for example. We have four or five 5-minute talks every Sunday. We have a musical number every Sunday. There’s no order. They’re all random people. Sometimes he’ll pick a married couple, but most of the time, it’s just random people. You’ll have some old man start and a young woman or girl finish. Every single talk for two years now has been focused on personal experiences with Jesus Christ, and it’s just changed everybody’s experience. And it’s such a small thing, but he insists that every time a high counselor comes, he brings a female stake leader, and the female stake leader speaks last. It’s heightened our experience. Are there limits? Neylan McBaine with Her Family There is definitely a limit to what we can do at the local level. And that observation is something that, unfortunately, has come from watching people try innovations and getting their hands slapped by higher leadership. I think the next step has got to be some top-down instruction. At some point, the Apostles would have to say, “Sacrament meeting structure is going to change, and this is what it’s going to look like now.” Then everybody will fall in line. But until that comes…You know, I fully expect them to say Young Women are going to start passing the sacrament. I think that’ll happen in the next couple of years. And then everyone will act like it’s always been that way. And you don’t want a Handbook to be three times as big as what we have now, cause that would limit agency and experimentation even more. But I’ve definitely come down on the side of lay ministry being a feature, not a bug. But that’s not to say that it’s perfect. It’s a big challenge. It’s a catch-22 because the people who have the power are the ones who ultimately have to give up the power. When it comes to expanding women’s influence in the Church, it will require men to give up power and expand the circles of power, which is almost never in human nature. And I think that there are probably fears that we are not aware of. For instance, we can say it’s best practice for men and women to be together in decision-making bodies. But I’m pretty convinced that there is a fear among our high-level male leadership of men and women working together. It’s not a boardroom, a legal office. There isn’t an HR office. It’s a much more intimate, vulnerable space where you’re talking about people’s lives, their health, and their financial situations. I’m not saying that’s an excuse. I don’t think it is. I think there are ways around all of that. You call couples to be bishops. Just like we’re calling couples to be mission leaders. Why can’t the couple serve together? I think there are ways that we could creatively work around all of that. But sexual dynamics probably undergird most leadership fears about expanding women’s roles. I want to go back to the Restore talk. I was in the room. What I experienced is that there was a real shift in energy in the room when you spoke, and you talked about this big elephant in the room and named it: Patriarchy. It was vulnerable and real. You spoke truth to power and also held paradoxes – this frustrates me, and I love it. I was standing off to the side of the audience, and I felt the energy shift, and I saw people get uncomfortable, and I thought, yes, and this too. I’m curious, though, what that experience was like for you, to be on that stage saying those things and then after. It was a life highlight. It was probably one of my favorite moments. I mean, I’ve been doing this for so long. I got tired a few years ago. At the end of Better Days 2020, I really had to take a step away. I was coming off of a really, really heavy emotional investment in this community. So I’ve had a few years off, and now I’m kind of old and grumpy! I don’t have employment that’s wrapped up in what I say. I’ve got a good relationship with my bishop and am very much at peace with my family and my ward. My kids are actually at peace with their relationship with the Church and thriving in it. I’ve got a great marriage. I had some capital to spend. Professionally, I’m a marketer – I know my audience. I’m a good communicator, and I’ve been observing more and more the frustration around authenticity in our church leadership. We would be so much stronger as a community, and we would be more vulnerable with each other, if we were much more honest about what we’re experiencing together. There’s power in naming things honestly. Yes, there’s power in identifying things. Any therapist will tell you, that you have to name it, and you have to identify and wrestle with and be honest with it, and that’s where the healing starts. Right, that’s when the healing starts. If we continually pretend something doesn’t exist, it just makes the wound fester. It was all of those principles that led me to the idea of naming patriarchy. I don’t think I used the word patriarchy in Women at Church. If I did, it was not a main theme. It’s buried in there. It’s all implied. It felt like all of these factors came together to say, “Let’s just be honest about this. Let’s find a place where healing and tension can live in a healthy way.” After your speech, I sat down for lunch with a group of women I didn’t know. It led to an important and interesting conversation. If nothing else, you gave permission to name it, to talk about it. This isn’t a boogeyman that we’re wrestling with. This is what patriarchy is. Neylan McBaine It’s textbook. Literally, the definition in the dictionary is what we practice in the Church. That’s a fact. And it doesn’t have to be scary. We can start with the foundation that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints functions administratively as a patriarchy. So you have some options: You can be fine with that. Even if they do see patriarchy, most people are fine with that. Then there’s a group like me who’s like, you know what? Patriarchy has its problems. Yeah, I don’t like it, but there’s enough that’s feeding me in unique ways that I’m willing to continue engaging. And then there’s the third option which is, I see it, and it’s a problem. In fact, it’s too big of a problem. It overshadows all the other good that I get from this particular institution, so I have to go elsewhere. Having a conversation about those three options is productive. But pretending patriarchy doesn’t exist is not. What does being faithful mean to you now? I have a very narrow definition of faith: to be committed to my covenants and behave in a way that is aligned with my covenants. My actions are patterned after those actions of the Being I revere as being divine and the ultimate guide. And that’s kind of it. Does being faithful mean that I know that there are three degrees of glory, and I understand exactly who’s going to go to which and what that process is going to look like? Or, that Joseph Smith saw beings exactly as he described in the various accounts? It doesn’t mean that to me. Being faithful at this point means that I trust in my heart and I act in my actions in a way that is aligned with the expectations of this gospel. Because if I just sit around and think, to what degree do I believe? To what degree do I buy the claims of Jesus being a perfect half-god being? To what degree do I believe all of the truth claims? I don’t know how much that personally helps me. I know to a lot of people, that kind of calculus is exactly what faith is. We’re often told to evaluate the strength of our faith. To ask ourselves, To what degree do I buy that narrative? And to be able to answer “I completely buy it!” That’s a crude way to put it, but that’s what we do. I think a lot of people are like, well, Today I’m at eighty percent buy-in. Today, I’m at thirty percent. Today I’m at one hundred percent. And that’s great. Maybe that works for somebody. I would go nuts if I did that every day. If I were to be constantly asking myself to what degree I “know” something happened or something was exactly the way I’ve been told it was? That would be entirely unproductive for me. But what is helpful for me is to say, “Okay, I’ve made certain covenants that, on a macro level, I trust are for my good and are getting me closer to divinity. They’re going to bring me comfort in this life and they have a spark of something beyond this life. I’m going to align myself with those, and I’m going to do what I need to do to remain faithful to those.” That’s what works for me, which I feel is in line with having personal integrity. What’s nurturing your faith these days? Oh, it’s music. One hundred percent music and art. I don’t mean snobby art, but virtuosic art. As a culture, we moved from virtuosic art to entertainment. And then we’ve moved from entertainment to addictive media so that really worries me. So for me, it’s all about acoustic, virtuosic, technically demanding music. If I want to feel the Spirit, music works for me every time. What are you up to now? I’m trying to support music teachers. I have a software product that helps them run their studios in a professional way. And you have a partnership with the Center for Latter-day Saint Arts? Yes, it’s called the Ariel Bybee Endowment, and it’s a $5,000 grant prize that we give out every year to an LDS artist who submits a proposal based on nine areas of my mother’s career. She was an opera singer, but she participated in lots of different media and had different areas of her career. So this year, the call for submissions is around a new piece of choreography for the Utah Metropolitan Ballet, which is the resident ballet company in Utah Valley. They will debut the piece next May. My mom sang with New York City Ballet when they had a particular production where it required a live singer on stage with the dancers. Anything else you want to say? The Latter-day Saint Women Project is at the core of our community tissue. I remain committed to it being one of the most important things I’ve ever done. I’m so grateful to all of the people who have contributed to it over the years, and to those who keep it so vibrant now. At a Glance Name: Neylan McBaine Age: 48 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Marital History: Married 25 years Children: Three daughters, ages 21, 19, and 16 Convert to the Church: Baptized at 8! Education: Studied English and Music at Yale University Occupation: Small business owner, marketer, activist Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: Come Ye Disconsolate Website: www.neylanmcbaine.com Interview Produced by Elizabeth Ostler

Karla Autrey’s son came out to her as gay after he completed his mission. She did not understand at first how to accept his sexual orientation but has poured herself into learning unconditional love for her son and providing support to our LGBTQ members. ADVISORY: discussion of suicide prevention Karla Autrey Tell me about yourself. I grew up on a small farm in Eastern Oregon. That part of Oregon had been settled by the Mormons, and I grew up in the Church. It’s a very rural and conservative area. My ancestors saw things as very black-and-white, very patriarchal. The men dominated and the women complied. That’s the way I grew up. It was also in the time in the Church with Bruce R. McConkie and Ezra Taft Benson – their talks came down like “Thus saith the Lord …” I wasn’t independent enough to wonder, “maybe not.” My mom was very black-and-white. My dad was a convert from the South, so he could see more shades of gray. He was political and I attended some political things with him. I think that influenced me even though I was raised to be very strict and conservative. I went to BYU, then served a mission in Ecuador. When I got home, I transferred to Texas Tech, where my father’s family was. I met my husband there – we married and moved around a lot. We have three children – a daughter and two sons. My daughter lives in Maryland with five kids and three step-kids. My older son lives in Kansas near us and has four children. My younger son lives in Utah and is gay. My husband and I moved to Austin shortly after getting married, and I graduated from the University of Austin with a psychology degree. I went on to Southwest Texas State and got a master’s degree in literature. They were important at the time but now they’re just kind of a blur. When we left Texas, we moved to Ohio and needed a second income, and I taught in the Ohio state prison system. That was an amazing experience and a real eye-opener. For the first few weeks, I was scared – my first meeting was being taught what to do if we were taken hostage. But a light clicked and I realized these people are people. They were exceptional. Some inmates told me, “We’re throw-away people. We know they put us here and locked the door, and don’t expect to see us again.” It made a big impression on me and was the most rewarding job I ever had because I made a difference. Education makes a difference. People don’t return to prison if they’ve had a chance to receive an education – it really cuts down recidivism. We were in Ohio for five years, then Florida, Illinois, and ended up in Kansas. We’ve been here for twenty years. I’ve taught everything from preschool all the way through college. I tutored college students who have special needs or learning disabilities – that was another good experience because it gave kids a chance to go to college with supports. When a person can say, “I’ve been to college,” even if they don’t graduate, it’s a real plus for their job prospects. When my youngest son graduated from high school, I went back to school and got a marriage and family therapy degree. I didn’t get my license and I’ve never practiced. I just enjoyed learning. That’s my goal – to enjoy learning. I’ve been able to share it with other people, but that’s kind of where it went. That’s when my son was coming out and a lot of conflict started. Sometimes he was coming out, and then he wasn’t … I wasn’t very receptive to him in high school and it didn’t go well. He served a mission when he was twenty-one and his mission was very positive with some people, and not positive with others. When he came home, his mission president told him to just forget all that LGBT stuff, go home and be straight. He tried. I was so off the page. He called me about a year after his mission and said, “I’ve got something to tell you.” I said, “Oh, you’re engaged!” Not quite. He told me that he is gay, so I really was on the wrong page. I said all the typical things – that he could still marry a woman because other people have … the myriad of things to make myself comfortable but that hurt him. It wasn’t too long after that when he decided he would be better off not having any association with our family. We haven’t heard from him in about two years. If that’s what is best for him, then that’s what he needs. I took a deep dive and studied about LGBTQ from various sources – I finally realized what I was doing. I learned a lot and learned that I was wrong. You said “wrong things” about your son being gay but then were willing to study it. What made you take a second look? I love my son. I enjoy being around him. There are some people – you just enjoy their personality. We could laugh until we were almost rolling on the floor. We could have very deep discussions. He knows Christ. He has a much deeper relationship with Christ than anybody I know. When my son was set apart for his mission, the stake president said there would be an angel on his right side and on his left. I heard it and believed it and moved on. My father had already passed away, and I have a brother who passed away as an infant. You can take it for what it’s worth, but when I picked up my son at the airport at the end of his mission, I heard my dad say, “Okay, it’s time for us to go now.” I envisioned my dad and my brother on my son’s right side and his left. He told me about some of the challenges he experienced and yeah, it was probably good to have some extra help. Picking up bits and pieces of what he went through on his mission, he had to have something to help him through. That helped me to know about Christ because of what my son went through on his mission. I read Ben Schilaty’s book, A Walk in My Shoes, and that helped me see things from a different perspective. I read Charlie Bird’s book, Without the Mask. I read the book by Tom Christofferson, That We May Be One. I thought about what Tom wrote about his mother – she came from a very conservative background, but nothing was going to stop her from loving her son, and she wasn’t going to allow others to disrespect him. I went outside the Church and read a lot of books – medical things, whatever I could find. I went through the myths, like you can become gay by association. That’s a myth. I learned about genetics and there’s not really an answer yet, but researchers have some ideas. In the meantime, my husband was working out near New York City, then transferred to the San Francisco area. He interacted with a lot of gay people while he worked in both locations. In his own way, he was being prepared for our son as well. I went through a period of being angry, and I’m still a little angry that I believed everything that I was told in church. I had to re-evaluate everything I had been told about LGBT people, and it’s not consistent with Christ’s gospel as I understand it now. I was angry with myself that I didn’t think more critically, that I was so accepting as “thus saith the Lord.” I didn’t leave the Church. I don’t know if you can leave the Church and create a change within the Church. Do I believe the Church is true? I believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true. That’s kind of where it stands. I believe that a lot of members of the LGBTQ community are so much closer to Christ. They’re so much more Christlike than I am. It bothers me, because they’re worthy of being in the temple and they’re not there. I think that if we can open ourselves up to the LGBTQ community, we will be so much better off because they don’t choose war. They look for peaceful ways to resolve things. They’re our hope for the future. We haven’t done too well, and they see things so much differently. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but it’s like Brene’ Brown says: “It’s hard to hate people close up.” Get to know people and it changes. As I’ve gotten to know them, as I think back on my son, I think about other people … I was wrong. That doesn’t mean I’m comfortable with everything. I still have sixty-plus years of “this is the way I saw it,” but I know I was wrong and I want the world to be different than it is. How are you working to change the world to be different? What do you envision? I serve in the temple. I know that’s controversial with a lot of people because the temple excludes LBGTQ members in a lot of ways. But I can go there and the Holy Ghost can talk with me, caution me, tell me to be patient, and explain things that help me get through. There isn’t a row of white shirts and dark suits sitting on a stand that I feel are between me and God. I take out the people between myself and God. Sometimes after talking to church members, I want to never go to church again because I go home feeling so bad from what they said. But I enjoy being in the temple, even though I know that doesn’t work for everybody and I can understand reasons why it wouldn’t. I envision that we wouldn’t have labels anymore. We wouldn’t have the labels of gay or lesbian or minority this and that. We would just be. We could still be different – we don’t have to agree. We didn’t agree in heaven and we aren’t agreeing down here on earth. But we don’t have to be mean about it. Red will always be my favorite color but it won’t be everybody’s favorite color, and even then, I don’t want red everywhere. I appreciate blue and green. People could just be and we could listen to each other. When I got my master’s degree in literature, I minored in adolescent psychology. We were living in San Marcos, near Houston, and there was a rash of suicides. I learned how contagious suicide was, especially among youth. If somebody’s talking about it, you need to be aware. I’ve done the QPR suicide prevention training (Question, Persuade, Refer) and in fact, one time I was talking to a long-distance family member. The person called me and we were talking, and suddenly I started recognizing the signs that this person was contemplating suicide and was saying goodbye. I knew to address it. You can say, “Are you thinking about this?” And yes, the person was. I talked to them for a few minutes and said, “I’m going to get you help. I have other family members that live near you that I’m going to call.” I talked to the individual’s spouse and said, “Please watch over them. I’m going to call some other family members and have them come.” When I called others, I didn’t know if they believed me or not, but I said, “You need to go see them now. Put down whatever you are doing, this is not something you can put off, go see them now.” It really helped going through that training. I had heard the myth that if I bring up the subject of suicide, it might encourage it. That’s not true – you need to bring it up and address it. That’s a frustration I have – these young people are getting pushed out, but do we realize what they’re being pushed toward? If someone came to you and said, “My kid just came out, what do I do?” – what would you say? I might let them spew for a while and just listen to them. There’s a power to listening. I might have to use some duct tape so I didn’t interrupt. Maybe there would be some openings where I could say, “This is what I’ve learned, and this is what I’ve experienced.” Our children are the same people before they made an announcement as they are after. You loved this child before. The only difference is they’ve made the announcement. I would talk to them about the process I went through when my son came out. I partnered with an illustrator to create an experiential book that helps parents and others understand and work through the conflict between their beliefs and loving their child. It hasn’t been published yet but I’m working on figuring that out. One of the biggest things I’ve learned for my son is unconditional love. I’m not great at it yet, but I’m aware and I’m trying. You do not have to agree with people’s choices, but God always loves us and we should do the same. Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother don’t withdraw Their love and say, “Okay, that’s it. You’ve made too many mistakes. You’re on your own.” You can love your children, and everyone. You don’t have to agree with everybody, but you can still love them and show them respect. If you can just open the door to love – that’s how Christ summed it up. There are two commandments: love God and love our fellow men. Christ said, “That’s it, guys. That’s the law and the prophets.” But that commandment seems to get swept under the rug quickly, and we focus on all the other things. The Family Acceptance Project at San Francisco State University has been studying this for more than twenty years – how much better off kids are when their families accept them and give them support. What a difference it makes in their lives. The website has a list of don’ts and DO’s, things to show support. It’s a great resource and helped me to be a better parent. I was asked to speak once in stake conference, and I asked the stake presidency, “Can I say these words? Gay and LGBTQ. No one says them over our pulpit.” And they said Yes. I quoted a lot of church leaders, and people came up to me after who were very grateful. There were other people who spoke to me on the way in, but did not speak to me on the way out. What message is that sending? Whether you like it or not, LGBTQ people are here. They’re part of our families and part of our church. I don’t mean to be disparaging, but I think God has given us this challenge of accepting LGBTQ people so we can truly learn to love all people. Different sexual orientations go against our culture, but God seems to be saying, “If you want my reward, you have to learn to love.” I think He’s pushing us. I just feel bad for the people who, the way I look at, possibly volunteered to come to this earth to help the rest of us. But boy, are they taking a beating. They’re treated better in some spaces, but this country is pretty hostile right now. What are some of your current challenges regarding LGBT issues? I would like to make a difference but sometimes I don’t know how. My husband and I joined PFLAG and attend the monthly meetings to find out about what’s going on in Kansas. We just got a new stake presidency but I haven’t hit them up yet with, “What are you going to do about LGBTQ people?” I thought to give them time get their feet on the ground, then schedule a meeting and ask them. That’s how I ended up speaking in stake conference – I was in a temple recommend interview and the stake counselor asked if I had any questions. I thought, “Oh brother, you should not have asked.” And I said, “Yeah, so many questions. What are we doing for the LGBTQ community?” I later attended a meeting with the stake leaders and some other LGBTQ parents, and saw the anger some parents have about the way their LGBTQ children are treated. And I was asked to speak in stake conference. Sometimes it would be a lot easier to not go to church. I’m probably not very effective at church but I try, at least in spirit, for people to know I represent something different. It’s rough to experience opposition from other church members but we’re all people and we all have flaws. It’s just hard when their flaws and our flaws bang into each other. But there’s a gift in that, because now I understand how our LGBTQ brothers and sisters feel when they experience opposition from church members. I may not know it from an LGBTQ perspective, but I know it’s real. I think it’s good that I can understand and I’m not one more person throwing cold water on them. Out of hardships come great lessons that we can use to help other people when they experience even more hardship than we do. I believe we have to bridge the gap between what conservative parents have been told and believe, and loving their LGBTQ child. Someone has to reach out to the parents. It’s hard to work through your child being LGBTQ and the moral quandary that society, culture and some religions teach about being LGBTQ, but the parents can’t be condemned as monsters. The condemnation of being a “monstrous parent” when you can’t support your child being LGBTQ was paralyzing for me. Yes, I failed my son, no denying that. But to support and love him, I had to find a way through the myths, misinformation, misunderstandings, and confusion. We don’t necessarily have the tools and understanding to help and support our children when they tell us that they are LGBTQ. The child instantly goes from being a person to an issue that the parents have been taught is a sin. In the parent’s attempt to help save their child from the “sin” of being LGBTQ, they say and do things that are destructive to the child and the family relationships. It is parents’ responsibility to unconditionally love their children, but some parents, me included, don’t know what unconditional love is. They mistakenly think if they unconditionally love their children, they agree with everything they do. But that isn’t the way unconditional love works. It loves no matter what children do, think, say … Loving unconditionally means no matter what you do, I’ll always love you. I had to separate my son from the LGBTQ issue. I read stories, listened to podcasts, and studied research for two years. While doing this, I made many mistakes. Many myths were still stuck in my head and I acted on them to my son’s detriment. Eventually, I separated out the misinformation – he did not choose this, his sexual orientation is not a mistake or a sin. I came to accept his being gay as the way God intended for him to be. Then I could again see my son for the amazing person he is. Unfortunately, by then he was no longer speaking to me. I don’t want another child or parent or family or friendship to follow this path. We should not talk about LGBTQ as a topic. They’re people. They’re in the room. Let’s address them rather than talk about them, you know. They’re doing everything – they’re fasting, they’re praying, they’re doing all these things to the extreme. It’s not good. As far as I know, my son has walked away from the Church, and it’s probably healthier considering his situation. He had a bishop who was accepting, the next one was very black-and-white. It may be better for his spiritual and mental health to be apart right now. I had to learn how to live with that. God has not stopped watching out over my son. He has not stopped loving him. God has him on a path that I may not understand or be able to see, but He is helping him. The Lord hasn’t given up. AT A GLANCE Name: Karla Autrey Age: 68 Location: Lenexa, Kansas Marital History: Married 44 years Children: 1 daughter and 2 sons Convert to the Church: My parents were both members. I was baptized when I was 8. Education: Masters in Literature and Marriage & Family Therapy Occupation: Retired Language Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: O My Father Interview Produced by Trinia Caudle

Gathering Of Tribes is a nonprofit organization founded to support Native American and First Nations Latter-day Saints in the US and Canada by working collaboratively with the Church to nurture faith in Christ, support family history work, and celebrate cultural identity. The impetus of the LDS Women Project was to refute the idea that being a Latter-day Saint woman had to look one certain way, and to demonstrate that our diversity is our strength. Gathering Tribes exemplifies this. Could each of you tell us about yourself and how you got involved in Gathering of Tribes? Cindy Quinney, Shane Manning, Amber Irwin from Gathering of Tribes CINDY QUINNEY: I’m from the Cree tribe in Saskatchewan, Canada. I currently live in Calgary, Alberta, and I am the Executive Director of Gathering Of Tribes. This work started in 2021 to gather Indigenous people who are members of the Church, so I could see more people that look like myself and build connections. A prompting of the Spirit about gathering together started us to move forward with this project. SHANE MANNING: I live in Gilbert, Arizona, and I’m the mom of a multicultural, multiracial family; we’re an adoptive and foster family. My people are in Oklahoma, but we’ve been in Arizona for a couple of generations. My dad’s side is Muscogee Creek, and my mom’s side is Mormon pioneers. My husband and I have adopted and fostered – we have seven kids; our oldest and youngest two are Black, we have two Lakota, and two that are white. As my oldest daughter started Young Women, she pointed out that she was the only person of color in this circle. We had been aware of that, but it became important to us to find more people who looked like her, as Cindy just said, so she felt included and that she belonged. I looked into the Genesis group. I started graduate school a couple of years ago to study how a non-Black family helps instill Black identity in adopted children. As I went through my classes, I also started looking at reconnecting with my Indigenous identity and thinking about my Lakota kids in the same way. When I heard about the first Indigenous gathering in Calgary, I told my husband, “I have to go. I don’t know what this is. I don’t know why it’s happening, but I have to go.” When I got there, I spoke with Cindy about what she was doing and her motivation and the spirit behind it, and I wanted to be a part of this. So here we are, a few years later with a nonprofit and all kinds of stuff going on. I am Director of Operations. AMBER IRWIN: I am the only non-Indigenous team member, so I have no tribe to claim. I’m the creative director. I’ve been a creative for over twenty years. My roots are in the video game industry – I worked as a 3D artist, and later became a marketing director and creative director for small businesses and nonprofits. When the 2020 pandemic hit, I had just learned sewing and I had the technical skills to build a website, so I organized roughly 2000 volunteers to make fabric masks for the Navajo Nation since they were hit so hard. We made over 100,000 masks in ninety days, and expanded to different tribes that also needed them. Right after that, I became a marketing director for a nonprofit organization that provides scholarships to Native American students seeking higher education. I am the mom of five boys and a wife. I’m also going back to school. I’m currently getting a second bachelor’s degree and going into art therapy, and that will eventually be followed by law school. To what purpose, I don’t know, but I feel inclined to do that. Can you explain about Gathering of Tribes for people who aren’t familiar? CINDY: The purpose of Gathering of Tribes is to help meet the needs of the Indigenous members of the Church, to bring them closer to Christ through our cultural identity and our connection to the Savior. I was adopted when I was younger. I lived with my Indigenous family until age ten, then I lived with a foster family who was LDS. At church, there were no Indigenous members for me to connect with, so I stopped going for a number of years. When I came back to church and got my temple recommend, I went to the temple and saw an Indigenous member. I was super excited and immediately said hello, because I was so happy to see him. I’m sure he thought it was really weird. I was invited to church the next day out in Morley, a First Nations settlement on the Indian reserve in southern Alberta. It was the first time I’d been in sacrament meeting with all Indigenous members, and I don’t think I’d felt the Spirit that strong in a long time. I felt that we needed to be together. I made the effort to go out there a few other times, and the Spirit prompted me to have a gathering-like conference. I didn’t really listen to the Spirit, I thought that would be great for someone else to do. But eventually, I did get on my knees and prayed and prayed, “Well, this is what you want me to do. I’ll do it, but I need you to send the right people to help me because I can’t do this on my own.” The Lord blessed me with some amazing sisters, including these two women. I’ve worked with many others, from the first committee to the most recent committee, and I’m blown away by the members of the Church when they feel the spirit of something that’s important to Heavenly Father. He’s trying to strengthen all of us and let us all know that we’re loved, no matter what we look like. Gathering of Tribes CINDY: I give credit for the name to a friend from Morley. She first said, “gathering nations,” then she said, “gathering tribes” and it stuck. AMBER: When everyone was on lockdown, I started listening to podcasts and randomly came across Tribe of Testimonies by Andrea Hales. She interviews Native American and First Nations peoples about their testimonies and living in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Cindy was a guest, talking about a grassroots movement of gathering. I didn’t know how to help from so far away, but I can make a website. I have graphic skills. I contacted Andrea Hales and asked for Cindy’s email, and said, “If you need me, let me know.” It’s been five years. Can you talk about that first gathering? What types of things happened there? CINDY: I had a dream that we were at the temple in regalia, and all our ancestors were there on horses. I felt it was important that we gather at the temple and start preparing for the Second Coming. SHANE: We gathered in Calgary at the temple, and there’s a ward building that shares the parking lot. Cindy got a photographer and a drone operator, and everyone wore regalia for the picture in front of the temple – all these Indigenous people representing their histories and their ancestors with their traditional clothing. The temple was closed for annual cleaning so we had the grounds to ourselves. We had a wonderful visit with all the people, there was some spontaneous singing, and we walked around the temple. In traditional culture, you honor the four directions so we walked all four of the directions, then gathered together at the front of the temple for the group photo. It was a beautiful moment and representation of what we’re trying to do.That evening in the church building, we had dinner and a cultural dance and celebration. The next day, we had conference sessions and speakers. There were a lot of people from Calgary, and at least three different groups of people from Arizona. In doing this work, what have you learned about the nature of our Heavenly Parents? CINDY: When I think about my connection to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, I just love people so much. I look beyond what’s going on in their life and try to see them and the potential they have, as Heavenly Father does. Sometimes it’s hard, but I don’t want to give up on someone. In this gathering and all the different committees, we have different personalities, and we’re Indigenous, and we can be fiery. We have our opinions, but try to be leaders in a loving way with everyone we meet, and learn from the experiences. SHANE: A majority of the Indigenous community in North America has been touched by foster care and adoption. There’s so much family loss in these communities because of governmental policies for so many generations. Amber has an adopted son, and she’s in the works with some other things. We are currently fostering and have adopted children, and Cindy herself was a foster child. When I think about our Heavenly Parents, how They want us to be connected to Them, I visualize and understand the temple sealing in a different way than a lot of people. We’ve taken our adopted children to the temple to be sealed, and when we do that ceremony, I feel that I’m not just being sealed to that child, but also to their biological family. I feel an obligation and a connection to them moving forward. People often think of the sealing as a chain going back generations, but I envision it as a web because I’m connected to my children and their biological families for generations, forward and backward, and everywhere, which is also the seven generations. The seven generations is an Indigenous teaching that connects you backward and forward for that many generations. When I think of our Heavenly Parents, I think of that. They want us to be sealed and connected to Them, and to recognize that we are all sealed into the family of God. It’s not just your biological family line, we are all sealed together. We are all responsible to and for each other, and we will answer for that when we return to our Heavenly Parents. AMBER: We hosted a devotional in October 2024 called Sacred Sisters, and my talk was called “A Mother’s Prayer.” When we look to the scriptures, whenever the Lord speaks about gathering, He uses a feminine form – a hen will gather her chicks, she will not forget the suckling child. It’s all feminine. We’re given a gift to be the kin-keepers. I think there’s no mistake that the spiritual prompting for this organization, Gathering Of Tribes, was given to women. Historically, Indigenous communities are matriarchal. The bloodline goes through the women. That’s where they recognize us, because that is where we come from. Every story starts with a woman, so I do think there is a natural gift given to women to gather. Gathering of Tribes CINDY: As women, we’re creators. That’s the blessing we have. We can create peace within a family. We can create community, trying to show love. We have a soft side, and there’s strength in being like that because it’s Christlike love. Our culture is matriarchal; women make decisions in a lot of the tribes. Even though it probably doesn’t seem like it, men will turn to women – their wives, their mothers, their sisters – for opinions because we have a different perspective. We all have access to heavenly communication. We can get inspired. We couldn’t do this work if we didn’t open that portal and talk to Heavenly Father for guidance. Nothing stops us from doing that. SHANE: We’ve been in contact with different church leaders, mostly at the area level. Cindy wanted to make sure that we have priesthood approval and guidance. We were looking at bringing in a priesthood holder for the leadership team – praying about who it could be and what kind of role they would have. We had a meeting with a member of my North America Southwest area presidency, and brought that up with him. I was really grateful for him saying, “You don’t need to bring a priesthood holder into your organization, unless you feel that you need to do that. Don’t feel like you need to seek that out. If you receive inspiration, go ahead and do it. You have all the authority and all the power that you need right now.” That was really wonderful and reassuring to hear from an office holder in the priesthood. On your website, you talk about gathering, uplifting, and service. How does that guide the work that you’re doing? AMBER: Our mission is to strengthen and minister to Indigenous Latter-day Saints. And I just want to make sure to note that although we want to serve as a platform and an amplifier for Indigenous voices in the church, all are welcome to participate. We don’t want anyone to feel excluded. This is a time to be together. Our core values are to make sure that we’re aligning with the church values, which is making sure that we’re encouraging, nurturing your faith in Jesus Christ, and uniting families on both sides of the veil. I think that’s what we didn’t talk about – it’s not necessarily just our side, it’s also the other side, making sure we’re connected with our ancestors. We want to make sure that we’re caring for those in need and celebrating cultural identity as it relates to the gospel. CINDY: We had a fireside in Cardston, trying to encourage Indigenous members to build a relationship with their local leadership and to use their skills to gather people in their area to help strengthen them. The gathering of tribes means two things – the gathering of Indigenous and the gathering of the tribes of Israel. Like Amber was saying, everyone is invited. You don’t have to be Indigenous. The most important thing for us is that everyone feels loved without judgment. They’re welcome to come, be a part of it, and feel the Savior’s love and the love of a community that’s there to support them.The one thing I can say that’s been a blessing of all the gatherings is the feeling there. It’s beautiful, it’s fun, it’s happy, it’s joyous. We always like to meet at the temple first. That’s how we start the gatherings. We encourage people to bring family names, to focus also on gathering on the other side of the veil, which is what we’re trying to do and promote amongst our people. AMBER: My greatest desire for this project is that more people are inspired to host gatherings in their own areas. We can’t do it all but we can show you how we’ve done it. There’s such beauty when Latter-day Saints of all different backgrounds come together and share not only their faith, but share their cultural identity as it relates to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Heavenly Father speaks to His children all over the world, and because of that, there are so many incredibly vibrant and rich cultural practices and traditions that all testify of Him and His light. There is so much we can learn about the character of Christ and our Heavenly Parents if we create safe spaces to share ancestral teachings and celebrate our diversity. I think if we do this and embrace the good that we each have to offer, we’ll find the unity that we keep talking about and we’re continually striving for.I do think that there’s a power that comes when we share these good things, and it gives us the opportunity to learn more of Christ and of each other. The world can use more understanding right now, if we could come together as siblings that share the same Heavenly Parents. To me, these are a type of family reunion, and we should be having a lot more family reunions. AMBER: That’s how you compose music, right? You have to have all the notes. SHANE: I had a conversation with a woman at the Utah gathering in 2023. She’s white and her husband is Black and Indigenous, so their children have a beautiful mix. They participate in the Genesis meetings, and they also came to our gathering. She said, “I don’t know if this is weird for me to say as a white woman, but I find so much value in seeing the ways that different people worship and the way that they talk about God and Jesus Christ. It expands my understanding of who They are when I see the different relationships that people from different cultural backgrounds have.” That’s part of what we’re doing – opening a willingness to understand Jesus Christ through a different cultural perspective, and understand that the white Mormon way that we do things in the 2020s is not what we were doing in the 1830s and 1840s. There’s a culture in the church that has built up and people think that it’s the gospel. We want to open that up a little. Let’s change. Let’s bring in different perspectives and experiences and see if your relationship with your Savior and with your Heavenly Parents can change and develop, and grow as you look at Them through a different lens. Gathering of Tribes CINDY: I have a daughter in her 20s who is not really active in the church, but she has testimony. She helped plan the gathering because she’s invested in this and wanted to see what was going to happen. My daughter is half Native and half Black, and has felt like Shane’s daughter – she doesn’t see anyone else like herself in church. She came to a planning meeting with church leaders, and shared her thoughts about the importance of feeling part of a community. Because she bore testimony that it is important to feel welcomed and connected with others, she was able to soften the hearts of the leaders so that we could move forward with the gathering. I’m grateful for diversity because it brings beauty. The reason we’re all made different is to see how Christlike we would be. What does it mean to you to be a Latter-day Saint woman in 2025? When you think about taking that on as one of your identities, what does that look like? AMBER: We live in such a unique time, unlike any other generation before us, where we have technology and these communities that we can gather. Cindy’s in Canada, Shane’s in Arizona, I’m in Ohio. We have social media and all these other ways to connect and to be kin-keepers, to gather others. The restoration is unfolding right before our eyes and moving at such a rapid pace – we’ve been challenged to seek a deeper understanding of our covenants in the priesthood; Heavenly Mother is being openly discussed and cherished; women scholars have dedicated themselves to learning Hebrew and sharing incredible new insights from the scriptures, and providing insights into the history of the church. I know that we each have an individual path to walk, and each of our stories and our work is so divinely and carefully crafted for us. Being a Latter-day Saint woman in 2025 is filled with opportunity – to learn, to teach, to influence, to share, to serve, to gather, to testify, to love and to be loved, and most importantly, to strive to fulfill our greatest potential. It’s an open adventure. It’s ready and waiting. SHANE: My identity as a Latter-day Saint woman, in this time of chaos and fear, provides hope and respite. There’s so much fear in the world of scary things that are happening, but also of each other – of our brothers and sisters. An identity in the Church and in the Savior helps us to put that fear away and turn to love.We recently had a hard time in our neighborhood. It was partly in our ward and generally in the neighborhood. It kind of resolved and there was nothing else to do about it, but there were some hard and hurt feelings at the end of it. I got my kids together, we went to Trader Joe’s to get little bundles of flowers and some packages of candy, and we went to four or five different houses of the people who were on the receiving end of the hard feelings. We left the flowers and notes that said, “We just want you to know that we love you.” I talked to my kids about it – people are afraid, and when they’re afraid, they get mean. We need to put fear and anger aside and reach out in love. That’s what the gospel and the Savior are giving to me right now, and what I’m hoping to teach to my kids. CINDY: It’s okay that I have imperfections because I know that Heavenly Father loves me the way I am. He makes up the difference. There are so many ways in which I lack. These two women that He’s brought into my life – they’re fantastic, so talented, so smart. They know how to do things that I don’t, and they know how to bring things together. If I do something, I always say, “Can you edit this or look at this?” I like asking for their opinion. I’m learning to be a better team player.Having the identity of a child of God helps me realize that I’m doing my best, and I can move forward, trusting in Him. Even when I make a mistake, I know that I can go to my Heavenly Father in prayer and ask for help to keep going. There are so many things as women that we can learn in the gospel and the temple about accessing the power of heaven, and what blessings and power we have with us when we go out into the world to keep holding all the pieces together. I’m grateful to be a member of the Church. Is there anything else you want to add before we close? Gathering of Tribes CINDY: We want to emphasize again that everyone is welcome, no matter where your testimony is. If you believe in God just a little bit, or you have a deep, long history with the Church, you’re welcome to come and experience Christlike love and family and connection and diversity. Anyone who feels inspired to be a part of this or wants to help, please reach out. We know this is divinely inspired work, and Heavenly Father has more people whom He would like to strengthen with regard to serving our brothers and sisters. AMBER: The organization is in its infancy, and we need all the help that we can get. My biggest struggle right now is trying to take care of five little boys and do this full-time job at the same time. I don’t think enough people know about us or what we’re doing. Sharing our website and email with new friends, listening to the podcast and leaving a good review, sharing your favorite episode on social media – things like that would be so helpful to us, so people know who we are, and if they feel inspired, they can come. SHANE: I want to bring up our education goal. There’s a lack of knowledge among the mainstream community. There’s a lot of pain. There’s a lot to heal and reconnect in these communities, and we need to love both ways. We need to forgive on both sides. One of our goals is to educate people and leaders in the Church about the history of Indigenous people in North America. There are a lot of people with Native ancestry that their leaders don’t recognize. That’s another concern – leaders will hear about our events, but think they don’t have anyone Indigenous in their ward so they don’t need to announce it. That’s not always the case. If my bishop didn’t know the work I’m doing, he probably wouldn’t realize my background or connections. We want people to realize that you don’t know who’s all around you. We also want people to be aware of the history of the relationship between the Church and Native people, and look to the future. We want to come together and heal, to be one in the Zion community that the Lord needs to be able to return. CINDY: We need to build a bridge so we can do the Lord’s work. When you study the Book of Mormon, maybe try to see it through Indigenous eyes, with curiosity about the role of the Indigenous, and try to fully understand what we’ve been through. Shane talked about healing and talking, and communicating – that’s what will help us move forward with love and forgiveness. There’s so much more work to do before the Second Coming, and we have to do it together. We’re not doing it just as Indigenous people and non-Indigenous – we have to work together as one, as a family, to help those who are struggling. That’s really important, that we are one. AT A GLANCE Name: Cindy Quinney Age: 48 Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada Marital History: Single Children: One Convert to the Church? If so, date: Baptized 1987 Education: Trade School Occupation: Executive Director of the Gathering of Tribes Languages Spoken at Home: Love Favorite Hymn: I know that my Redeemer Lives Name: Shane Manning Age: 47 Location: Gilbert, Arizona Marital History: Married Children: Yes, foster and adopted Convert to the Church? If so, date: Raised in the Church Education: BA English; MA American Studies Occupation: Nonprofit founder/administrator; Native community educational outreach at university Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: Battle Hymn of the Republic Name: Amber Irwin Age: 40 Location: Ohio Marital History: Married Children: 5 Convert to the Church? If so, date: Born and raised in the church Education: Bachelor’s degree Occupation: Stay-at-home Parent Languages Spoken at Home: English, ASL, Spanish Favorite Hymn: Nearer My God to Thee Gathering of Tribes social media: @ldsgatheringoftribes Gathering of Tribes website: https://www.gatheringoftribes.org/ Produced by Elizabeth Ostler

Trina Caudle is a writer and editor with emphasis on personal stories and relationships. She brings that talent and skill set to the LDS Women Project as our Interviews Editor. Trina Caudle To begin, share briefly about your personal journey that got you here today. I grew up in Oregon as the oldest of eight kids, and we were raised in the Church. From the time I was a kid, I always wanted to be a writer about real life things. Nonfiction, especially biography and memoir, is my favorite thing to read and I love to learn about people. When I was ten, I read a book by Erma Bombeck, who was the original mommy blogger before mommy blogs existed. She was a newspaper columnist starting in 1965, writing about funny things that happened as a parent. Growing up in the LDS world, I was “of course” going to be a mom, but hey look, I could also be a writer. In both high school and college, I wrote for my campus newspaper. I was always the news section editor because I wasn't afraid to talk to the superintendent or the university president to get the heavier stories. I just asked a lot of questions. My university didn’t have a journalism major, so my degree is that I put together a weird composite of history, journalism, and oddly enough, political science. I had never intended to work in government, but it opened a door to the job I started two weeks after graduation with the Oregon state legislature. I did the minutes of the House of Representatives floor debates – every speech, every reply, all the roll call votes. From there, I moved to Washington, DC in 2003 to work for a states advocacy group called the National Conference of State Legislatures. I intended to come to DC for a year, and then I would go back to Oregon, but I met my husband six days later. I never moved back to Oregon, we’ve been on the East Coast ever since. As you were figuring out how you wanted to be in the world, how did your faith travel with you? I grew up as a good little Mormon girl who didn’t rock the boat. The only thing I was not happy about was my brothers got to go camping all the time with Scouts, and I did not. When I was 18, nobody I knew took higher education seriously – college for girls was only until you got married. So I didn’t take education seriously. I worked a minimum wage job and just hung out with friends. Fortunately for me, a young adult branch was created in my stake and it was a bunch of 18 to 21 year olds getting ready for missions. I went with the wave and served a mission in California right when I turned 21, which was the age limit at the time. It was common to assume sister missionaries served only because they “couldn’t” get married but really, a lot of women served because they chose to be there and we did really good work. Trina Caudle with her husband Were there key moments that you can recall, or was it gradual to go from somebody who doesn't rock the boat to somebody who does? In my faith and my church participation, I don’t think I rocked the boat much. I did what I was told. Every now and then, I’d pop off about something in a calling, like when I got annoyed enough to start day camp for Primary girls in my stake. The Young Men and Primary boys had all the Scout activities, the Young Women had Girls Camp, but the Primary girls had literally nothing all summer. That was not okay with me. But honestly, nothing really turned my head until I was married, I’d had 1,700 callings, and I had five children. Then I had my moment of, “Wait a minute.” That moment was when my oldest daughter was baptized. Ten minutes after she’d gotten out of the font, we were listening to the talk on the Holy Ghost. In the middle of it, she turned to her dad and whispered, “So when do I get to pass the sacrament?” It was completely out of the blue. Adam and I looked at each other with an “Oh crap” expression. I wanted to tell her, “You don't get to do that, but instead you get to …” and I had nothing. I was 41 years old, and that was the first time I questioned anything. I spent that entire summer studying the history of the Relief Society. What do women DO in this church? What did that questioning lead to? Where I landed at that point, and I still hold to, is that in the Church, there's a difference between minister and AD-minister. For the record, this was a few years before the change from home/visiting teaching to ministering, so I was – ha ha – “ahead of The Brethren.” Anyway, administering is planning, logistics, who can sign the check. It’s management. I kind of settled myself with administering being done by the men – fine, whatever, those are their chores. I have other chores. Ministering is one-to-one working with people, serving people, loving people. It’s the relationship building that can be done by anyone, and it’s what Christ Himself did. How many times in the scriptures is He talking about scheduling the building or deciding who gets what calling? He’s not. The stories about Christ are about direct interactions with people: supporting them, teaching them, uplifting them, telling them they have value. That's where I have focused my faith journey. A few years ago, I was Relief Society president. I was advised by a friend to focus on ministering to people directly and delegate everything else, and I took that literally. I tried really hard to build relationships and help the women work through whatever challenges they had. I commented to my husband once that I could feel my testimony shrinking at the same time it was growing. It was shrinking relating to things like the Word of Wisdom or tithing – those things became less and less important to me. I cared about people, individually, a lot more than any teaching or policy. The clearest example of the contrast was that I was told by the bishop that I could not call on a specific woman to teach or pray, and she couldn’t have a calling or ministering assignment. She was under church discipline for something, of course I never knew what. The more I was around her, the more I thought – why are we preventing this woman from serving during her repentance process? Wouldn't it help her to have a ministering assignment? Wouldn't it help her repentance to attend the temple? If you want someone to draw closer to God, why are we blocking them from the things that we teach that do that? The bishop was not withholding these things from her to be mean, he was (is) very good friends with her, and he was following the Handbook. But the entire situation was so bizarre to me. That's what I mean when I say I don’t care about the policy checkboxes, and I care more about people as people. Trina Caudle with her family How do you navigate seasons when faith feels quieter or harder? I take a lot of walks. I feel very connected to God in nature. Two of my kids have special-needs issues, so for a long time I went to Young Women’s camp every year, no matter what other calling I had. I was doing the camp leaders a favor, taking care of meltdowns so they didn’t have to. Now I’m a Scoutmaster of a girls troop in Scouting America (the new name for Boy Scouts) and I go camping every month. When I come home from being outside, Adam comments that I’m a lot calmer and more centered. The calming is as noticeable and dramatic as if I’d just been to the temple. How do you hold complexity as part of your identity as an LDS woman? I don't think of myself as a complex person. What you see is what you get. I find myself in complex situations, but I don't think of myself as a particularly complex person. Some of the complex situations are that I have an LGBT child in the LDS Church. I have an autistic child who needs extra community services. My marriage is evolving to mixed-faith because my husband is not believing the same things he used to. But when dealing with all of the complexity, it comes down to – what is my relationship with each of these people? What is your relationship with the people in complex situations around you? Look at people as whole beings, not only gay, or only in/out of the Church, or only whatever. It doesn't have to be super complicated. My husband, with all of his religious questions, is still a brilliant and generous person. My LGBT kid, before and after they came out, is a theater nerd and can tell you anything about Greek mythology. My autistic kid says the most hilarious things, wants only books for Christmas, and loves to swim. Whole beings. Lots of ways to interact with them. Trina Caudle with one of her children What you’re saying reminds me of that quote from President Monson that people are to be loved, not a problem to be solved. For real. People are people. They’re not problems. They need to be loved, not solved. Like, when people are inactive, people get contacted by the church. It’s like, are you contacting them because you care about them? If you feel caring towards them, do you actually know them? Or are you contacting them because they’re on your checklist? The only time I ever activated anybody was when I did not bring up the Church. She knew I was a Relief Society counselor. She knew that’s how I’d gotten her phone number in the first place. There was no mystery that I was there to invite her to church. But I just said, “Hey, a bunch of friends are getting together to do this activity. Come with us!” She came back to church on her own, because I was her friend with no pressure. I didn’t turn her into a project and drop her when she didn’t come back right away. I’m seeing a theme in this conversation of relationships and how center they are for you, and how they drive so much about what you do. Using ministering as an example, there’s something that you seem to have figured out that is a sticking place for many people, including me. How do we move from the checkbox/task to the person? Sure, it starts as a checkbox. But when you contact them, don’t approach them as a checkbox. When the COVID shutdown happened, we called literally every single phone number on the ward list, didn’t matter if they had a “do not contact” note. The people that I talked to, and I also heard back reports, we said, “Hey, we’re calling from the church and you’re on our roster. Obviously, I’m not inviting you to church because that’s closed down for now, but just checking in. Have you lost your job? Do you need food? Do you need anything?” We didn’t reactivate anybody that I remember, but people appreciated the phone call. They said, “I’m fine. I don’t need anything. Please keep me on the do not contact list. But thank you for showing concern in this time of national trauma.” You could start with, “I’m calling you because I’m the new Relief Society president, and I’m trying to meet people.” I said, “I’m the new Relief Society president” the entire time I had the calling. I would invite them to lunch or get ice cream and just talk to get to know them. Books edited by Trina Caudle You've done a lot of work with the Cherish books and the Heavenly Mother movement within the Church. I'd like to hear more about your relationship with Heavenly Mother. I grew up with the teaching, myth, story, whatever, that we don’t talk about Her because She’s too sacred. I didn’t question it and just went on my way. I didn’t have any experiences with Heavenly Mother until the Covid pandemic. I give President Nelson credit for this, because the week after I was called to be Relief Society president, he gave his talk in the women’s meeting called “Spiritual Treasures.” (October 2019) He talked about women having the priesthood through the endowment and gave us homework: go home and study these sections of the Doctrine & Covenants. I was terrified of the calling, so I went home and I studied the daylights out of all those scriptures. Then we had the pandemic, and that narrowed my focus even further into relationship, relationship, relationship. I was also thinking about my relationship with my husband and what it means to be an eternal couple. One day on Instagram, I came across Rose Datoc Dall’s painting Worlds Without Number, which depicts Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother together. It stopped me cold. I still don’t have words for it, but that is what I’m working for with my husband. I saved the picture and started following her account. Other Heavenly Mother art kept popping up because of algorithms, and one day someone asked in a question box: “How did you seek for Heavenly Mother?” I looked at that and thought, “Huh. How did I seek Heavenly Mother? I didn’t. She just showed up.” Everything clicked. Ooohhhh. I didn’t seek for Her. She came looking for me. About six months later, McArthur Krishna posted a call for submissions for poetry for a book she was starting with Ashli Carnicelli. I had been working with Richard Ostler on his Listen, Learn & Love books for two years at that point so I knew the editing process for full length books. I sent McArthur a message, “I don’t write poetry but I can put your book together.” In less than five minutes, my phone rang and that was it. God will find you where you are. When God the Mother found me where I was, it was on social media. You’ve had conversations with more than fifty women in your role as Interview Editor at the LDS Women Project. As you have listened to all of these women and their perspectives, how has that informed the way you show up as a Latter-day Saint woman? I don’t know that it informs how I show up as an LDS woman so much as I’m showing up as myself. This is me, it’s what I do, it’s how my brain works. It brings me back to the beginning – a writer of real stories, interview skills from my campus newspaper time, and all these interviews are mini biographies! I love talking to people because, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, everyone is so different. They have different interests. They have different capacities. And you accept people as they are. You care about who they are and where they are and what they do. It’s the only way. The American political drama of rejecting the word diversity is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, because we’re not clones. Diversity is everything. I read a book about nature that talked about plant diversity in your front yard – golf-course grass takes a lot of effort to maintain because it’s not healthy. You need at least five to ten different types of plants, flowers, ground cover to even start to have a healthy ecosystem in your yard. It’s the same with people. I hit a lot of the LDS woman stereotypes: I am a stay-at-home mom. We are a single-income family. I have five kids. I bake bread. I sew quilts. I homeschooled for a long time. I quit my career when I had my first baby because I was taught that this is the right thing to do and having a career is wrong. Now I would go back to full-time work if I could, but my special-needs kids preclude that. I know another stay-at-home mom of five with a special-needs child, who also bakes bread and sews quilts, is in the Relief Society presidency and goes to Girls Camp … she hits the exact same list of stereotypes. But we have really different personalities, interests, and hobbies. Diversity. There are as many paths to return to our Heavenly Parents as there are people. The journey to heaven is not a single-file line. It’s not healthy, and it’s not even possible. What I hope to do through the LDS Women Project, and how I choose to interact with the world, is to acknowledge the infinite ways of living the gospel and recognize everybody’s different talents and skills and interests. I want to celebrate the beauty in diversity. Trina Caudle at the Restore Conference And Christ and the building of Zion are in that diversity. That was what I wanted as Relief Society president. My theme word was Zion, one heart and one mind. That does not mean one life and one path. It means we have a common goal. We’re all working toward the same thing. I hope what we’re working toward is living together in peace and harmony and love and acceptance, not personal suppression and conformity. What would you say to LDS women who may feel unseen or unheard or unsure of their place? That is a valid feeling. They very well could be unseen and unheard, and they might not have a place. You can’t belong your way into a group of people. I’ve tried it more than once in church and non-church situations, and it doesn’t work. I’m very aware, for example, that many LGBT people would love nothing more than to belong in the LDS Church. But they don’t, because the people around them will not accept them or allow them to belong. Belonging comes from outside one’s self. It is external, not internal. I can contort my personality and behaviors into whatever is “acceptable” to try to fit in, but unless I’m accepted for myself as I am, I do not belong. Belonging only comes from other people. For the women who do not feel that they belong, they might not. In which case, I hope that they will create belonging for other people. If you feel like you don’t belong, go look for somebody else who also doesn’t belong, and belong to each other. If you are in the center of the ward or whatever social circle, you need to know that you control whether or not another person belongs. Your reaction and acceptance is what helps them belong, or not. Being in the center is great for you, but other people are out on the fringe. It is your responsibility to bring them into the center. They cannot force their way in. You have to let them in. AT A GLANCE NAME: Trina Caudle AGE: 53 LOCATION: Northern Virginia MARITAL HISTORY: 22 years and counting CHILDREN: Five creatives CONVERT TO THE CHURCH?: Born and raised EDUCATION: Western Oregon University OCCUPATION: Editor and writer, Scoutmaster, Road trip driver LANGUAGE SPOKEN AT HOME: American teenager - skibidi! FAVORITE HYMN: I’m Trying To Be Like Jesus SOCIAL: Instagram @libraryhouseediting Interview by Elizabeth Ostler

Carol Lynn Pearson’s first collection of poetry was self-published in 1967, and the print run of 2000 books sold out in just a few days. Since then, she has published over forty works – poetry volumes, memoir, gospel commentary, and theater productions. Among her notable works are Goodbye, I love you, The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, Finding Mother God, and the Primary song, “I’ll Walk With You.” I’ve been spending some time with your earlier work and reflecting on some of the things you’ve said, and you’ve commented that you have a variety of challenges in front of you, behind you, and to the side of you. How do you respond when you feel it all around? Carol Lynn Pearson Initially, I just have to come to a place that says, “Evidently, this is what we’re here for.” We’re not here to go to the beach in a metaphorical, ongoing way. We’re not here just to have fun. We’re not here just to receive a lot of blessings. We’re obviously here to experience a lot of stuff. I’ve given up saying, “How come that happens? I prayed so hard for that not to happen,” or “how come this or that?” Part of the whole plan is to be in a place of materiality, where stuff just happens without thanking God for this good thing or blaming God for that bad thing. A lot of things just happen because we live in this material world. So I’m grateful for the things that feel good, and I find a way to handle the things that don’t feel so good. When you’re navigating these things, and you have moments when a challenge is clearly the center of your life, do you search to find a purpose or meaning for it? I do search for kernels of meaning, and I don’t always find them. When I don’t find them, I just have to say, “This is life. I can do this, I will do this the best that I can.” And yes, I may cry. But whatever’s in front of me, I have to do. And always, there are good people to be with, good people to talk to, good things to read and lift you up. Sometimes, I make up a story – for me and other people – that this challenge is a useful thing and will prove to be useful down the line. When I’m in similar places, I often think of Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail and the scripture, “These things will be for your benefit.” (D&C 122:7) When I’ve been feeling really pushed down, the phrase has come to me, “You’re not as Job yet, your friends have not betrayed you.” (D&C 121:10). I played Job’s wife on the BYU stage, in the contemporary poetic drama called J.B. by Archibald MacLeish. I, as J.B.’s wife, Sarah, got to shout out in the Joseph Smith auditorium those wonderful, awful, terrible words, “Curse God and die!” There have been times when I have felt like that and questioned, “Why existence in the first place?” Sometimes I think, what was wrong with that wonderful silence before the Big Bang? Or before God’s thoughts that we ought to be here? What was wrong with that wonderful, grand nothingness? Well, that’s a stupid question because there’s nothing we can do about it. Stuff happened, and stuff happens, and we happened and we’re here. Sometimes in the middle of the night, when I’m in one of my dark places and can’t find any light, I often grab the last few lines from the play to help lull me back to sleep. Everything has come down on them. Sarah has come back to her husband and they try to figure out, can we ever make sense of this? Sarah insists, “Someday we’ll know. We’ll see.” And J.B. says, “No, Sarah, we can never know. We are, and that is all our answer. We are and what we are can suffer. But what suffers loves, and love will live its suffering again, and yet again, and yet again, in doubt, in dread, in ignorance unanswered, with the dark before and dark behind. And still live. Still love.” I love those words, sometimes they cheer me more than just about anything. I think we all find ourselves in that place, and we can always come down to some form of love. We know that we love, and we know that other people love us. Sometimes that’s all we have. Maybe that’s enough. We are. And that is our answer. I’ve noticed that thread throughout your work – coming back to love and maintaining a larger picture of our Heavenly Parents in the wings encouraging us, their mortal children. You have a way of getting to the heart of human experience, zeroing in and then pulling back to remind us that there’s a larger energy and purpose at work. Can you speak to that a little bit? Carol Lynn Pearson as Joan of Arc at BYU I was glad that I could use the metaphor of the theater – I think that works really well. But it’s taking us into life. Every one of us comes into this world, cast as the person we are. We, of course, can mold that and emphasize things and try to work out of things that we don’t like. But we all have certain things that are just us that we can’t do much about – about our bodies, about certain difficulties physically, mental difficulties that may keep us from being the largest person we want to be. We all have defective aspects in the role that we have been cast. It seems to me that almost all of us have blocks in what we would rather be doing. But here we are. To your question – you want to have a large umbrella over this whole concept and grab a little specific thing, then ask, how does this fit into the larger framework? I’m always trying to make sense out of stuff. I certainly look at things that appear to be tragedy and try to find some meaning in them. My signature story that many people know is my unusual marriage to a gay man. Both of us tried to make it work back in the 60s when all of us knew nothing about sexuality. It led to the tragedy of divorce and pain on both of our parts. I was at a loss about why? My dear queer husband was always a philosopher. He said to me more than once, “I know that you and I chose to do a project together. And I am so sorry that it is so painful. But I know that we agreed to do this project. All those sweet little poems you were writing way back then – that’s not the reason. You became a writer to address even more important subjects.” He and I never had a conversation that I might write our story. For those who don’t know: after trying so hard, four children and loving each other the very best that we could, we moved from Utah to California. We continued to work hard, and determined to divorce and remain good friends, which we were. Six years later in 1984, he passed away from AIDS when I was taking care of him. Soon after that, I thought, “Wow, if I could write that story, it might be useful to a lot of people.” There was tremendous ignorance. Young gay men were dying on the streets of San Francisco, being kicked out of their homes, kicked out of their churches. Families and the gay children were all in such distress, so I made a determination that I should do that. The book Goodbye, I Love You was one of the first things in our religious culture that opened a new way to look at this subject with compassion. Since then, tens of thousands of people have been truly enlightened and blessed. Some tell me their lives were saved because of that book. It was an odd paradigm – here’s something that’s going to be wonderful, but it turns out to be terrible. But you follow it far enough and work with it, and knead it in a way that the dough can rise. Something still painful, but spectacularly useful, might come of it. Sometimes I get way down in the darkness and think, “There’s no reason for this; this whole thing is just useless and awful.” I sort of force myself to say, “There is a larger picture. Whatever this is, all you’re supposed to do is the best you can. You might never see any good harvest from it in your lifetime. But maybe you don’t need to. All you need to do is the best you can and try to love, and that’s it.” That really resonates with me through my own struggles of trying to find a meaning or purpose to what is happening. Not that “everything happens for a reason,” but everything is useful data. Through the creation of art, we can find purpose and healing and give voice to something that might help somebody else. What does writing give you as you make your way through this mortal experience? Writing gives me a lot. I have kept a diary since I was a senior in high school. In the fall of 1956, I started keeping a diary, so I have this monumental trove of diaries. I try to write every day. Over the years, I have not written every day, especially when I was busy having children. I would sometimes catch up for two or three weeks. That’s not what I want to do, but I do spend a lot of time catching up. Today, I wanted to do other work, but I had to catch up on my diary because if I am not caught up in my diary, I know that something’s wrong in my life. Carol Lynn Pearson I remember in an early diary, I wrote the sentence: “Inasmuch as I can write down my life experience, that much do I understand the life experience.” If I can find words to describe what I think, what I’m feeling, what I’m experiencing in this moment – however difficult, however fine it might be – if I can find words to put to it, that helps me to understand it. It’s not just a globby little thought bobbing around somewhere. Writing helps me to make it more concrete. But other things … the book Finding Mother God. I hadn’t written poetry for a long time. The way this book happened is that I got so angry hearing a scholar talk about women in the Church. I brought up a question, that we need the brethren to address the gender of God on behalf of women. He said, “Oh, well, that’s just not going to happen.” I said, “What would it take for some of the brethren to really address this subject?” He said, and I quote, “I do not believe there is anybody in Church headquarters who is interested in doing the heavy lifting that would be required to address a subject like the gender of God.” When he said that, I felt absolute anger rising in me because it was both true and horrendous at the same time. Many women at that event felt the same way as I did. I was so upset that thinking about it the next day, I cried. I was so upset that I reached for a notebook, and I wrote a poem. I hadn’t especially thought about it, but I put all of the emotion into a poem. And that felt good. The next day, I wrote another poem. The next day, I wrote two poems. Before long, I had enough for this collection, inviting Mother God back into our consciousness. This is happening in general – there’s a tremendous rise of consciousness about this. And a tremendous, if I may be so bold, fear at the top of our religious organization. But that fear is not going to stop what’s bubbling up here because this is a historical necessity. The movement from patriarchy into partnership is as historical and necessary as was moving from the Dark Ages into the Enlightenment. We are on track in bringing the feminine into balance with the masculine in the way we look at the divine, and hopefully, in the way marriages work together. I know good LDS marriages that are true partnerships – they’re not waiting around for someone to give them the word. They work together and it’s wonderful. But as a community, and as a worldwide family, we have to rearrange our concept of power at the top. We have to see our Creators – or Creator, however we want to discuss that – as equally masculine and feminine. In our community, we have the tools, but we’ve got them buried somewhere. I, and you, and so many women and men are saying, “It’s time.” I feel called to do this thing, so it’s happening. So you see that my personal life and my writing are all intermixed. As you were talking, I was thinking about the promise of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Our theology is very clear, but our structure isn’t quite living to that promise of the theology. The thing that is disruptive and beautiful about our faith tradition is our belief in revelation – modern revelation as a church and for the individuals. You’re feeling called to say these things, in lockstep with the Spirit: I have a Mother there. And a Mother here. Not only there, but here. We have to bring there here. I have never had “a revelation.” I have never had a paranormal experience. I have never seen a vision. I have never heard a voice. Everything I have thought or written about, expressed in any way, comes from my imagination. I think my imagination is holy. I think your imagination is holy. We know the imaginations of all these wonderful musicians and artists who have seen something, heard something before they captured it with sound or on a painting or a sculpture. That’s the imagination at work and whatever is good is godly. Whatever is godly comes from God. God is within us as well as up there, wherever. We are filled with God-ness. We are God-ness. This poem is my little revelatory contribution. The scene that I’m describing happened right here in this room—totally me in my imagination, but with the caveat I just gave that my imagination is holy. This moment was holy. ASKING FATHER I tiptoed into prayer. Hesitantly, “Father, do you mind that I am giving Her so much attention these days?” There were no words, There was thought I thought there was an instant embrace Warm, I thought and soft and strong that drew me in so close, And drew the Mother in so close. And there we were held tight in a circle of three, a familial Trinity. That’s what I thought. What I know is this: tears on my cheeks. Amen. That little experience happened as I was sitting here. I closed my eyes and visualized all that, and I felt all that. It was so warm and so beautiful that I didn’t want to get out of it, ever. I wanted to stay in this chair right here with my eyes closed, in this prayerful poetic attitude. But also, I wanted to grab that feeling and write it down before it dissolved much. So I opened my eyes and grabbed my notebook. I saw a tear on the paper, because what I described in that little verse actually happened. So I’m comfortable saying that was a revelation to me, for me. We all have our assignments and our insights, inasmuch as they pass our personal test of being correct and being on the wavelength of love and being holy. We have a right and maybe an obligation to share them.We each have our own little cobblestones that we’re giving to building this new temple – whatever this temple is that we might call a new vision of God-ness that includes male and female equally. We need all the pieces that everybody can bring. There’s so much going on – it’s really very exciting. We know that it’s correct because it feels correct, and we have to trust our own feelings. We know when something feels off. When it feels so on, we can’t resist it. I love the visual of cobblestones coming together. When Christ appeared to the Nephites, He asked them for their writing. Where was the record of their revelations and spiritual experiences? When Christ comes again and asks us that, we’ll be able to show our poems and our art. Here’s my diary, Lord. To write all this down is an extra bonus because it can be shared more truthfully. All of us in our personhood, as we go around, we radiate a lot of light. That is our contribution to everybody around us. We should value that really highly. I would like to speak to the brand new book that just came out. The title of the book is The Love Map, subtitled Saving Your Love Relationship and Incidentally Saving the World. I love that outrageously arrogant subtitle because there’s something in it that is so true.We know that there is a tipping point where something builds and builds and builds and builds and builds. And then the last little thing happens – the drop of water overflows the fountain, the camel’s back is broken by one last straw, the single solitary one matters. The world today is in such turmoil, so many things about the world are so upended that it boggles the mind and we really stretch to make some kind of sense and some kind of optimism. Carol Lynn Pearson But we have to understand that in all of the chaos, there are little and large pockets of goodness and love that are blossoming. Why should I not be sufficiently self-aware or believe in myself enough to think, what if I am the tipping point? What if my success in my relationship – in this case, it’s a married love relationship, but the principles are the same for the family unit, for friends, for enemies, for everybody … What if I succeed? We have not yet even talked about what is the map itself, but I modeled it on Eastern traditions with chakras. We essentially move from the third kingdom as I call it, which is the place of will of action, a wonderful place unless you’re stuck there. We have to move from that place just a few inches, up into the heart where Jesus and every other great visionary teacher has called us to if we can move just that distance. Then the physicality of guts combined with the physicality of heart, and everything they represent of power and love, can come together. Then there’s nothing we can’t accomplish. It is obvious to look at our own lives and see, oh, I fell out of the fourth, which is the heart. I’m down here in the theory of trying to have control over something. It’s a terrible thing to look at the news these days – all we’re seeing is people trying to exert their will over somebody else’s will. We just have to hope. Something I said to myself, “often, all pain can be labor pain.” All the pain we’re seeing evidenced in the world today, and evidenced in our own lives, can be a birthing of some kind. In the book, we’re speaking of a birthing of ourselves, or our relationships, as we moved from the first kingdom, which is just survival, into the second, which is which is emotion, sexuality, reproduction, into the third of my will over your will, where we spend most of our dramatic time in this story. And then moving up into the fourth where God lives, where love lives. We can do that because we have a map. We can watch ourselves as we succeed, as we fail, as we fall, as we rise. The trajectory is without question, and it will happen. It might take us longer than we think, but it will happen because that’s what we are built for. We are designed to move upward to higher thinking, to more godly awareness of our attributes. We’re not made for anything else but for this kind of progression. I feel called in by that language: we are made for this. It reminds me of daring to love and daring to move from wanting to control things to being more expansive. It is a call to a higher way of being, and it requires courage. And don’t dismiss the things we gathered in our earlier times. We never say, “Oh, good. Now I’m in the third, I’m done with the fourth.” No, we gather everything we learned in the first chakra of how to survive; in the second of joyous sexuality and reproduction and creativity; in the third, how to make things happen. We gather all this energy, bit by bit, moving upward and upward. By the time we’re ready to truly move into the fourth, into the heart, into love, our luggage is pretty heavy because we’ve gathered so many good things from the entire journey. We come with full capabilities and what we have learned in our earlier experiences. We have all of those things to meld into the functions of love. That’s the best. It’s everything together, surrounded by and unified with the whole experience of love. That’s our goal, and we can do it because we see a step-by-step journey, and we can evaluate where we are. I love that little story. I had the best time writing it. The book felt so relevant, being in this fractured world with the pandemic – it’s all been destabilizing, and there’s a need for certainty and control. It’s a major theme of the book. I appreciate that it doesn’t mean you graduate and leave things behind. You bring them with you. You also discussed that we won’t stay in the fourth map – sometimes we’ll drop into the second or even the first map, and find our way back up. It’s about continuing the journey. It’s not that we failed or sinned, but that’s part of how we work as humans, and we continue to move forward. I’ve been thinking these thoughts and studying all of this for years. I’ve created a couple of other versions of the book that I didn’t like, but I love this new version of speaking in the first person. I was asked to give a talk in sacrament meeting. It was Valentine’s Day, so they wouldn’t ask me to talk about love. But I did. I utilized what we’re talking about here. At the bottom are very primitive kinds of relations between tribes. What came before the Law of Moses? If you kill somebody in my tribe, I kill your entire tribe. Moses was sufficiently enlightened to say, “No, it’s a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye, not both eyes, and not all your teeth, and not all the members of your tribe.” The law of Moses could be the third kingdom. And then here comes Jesus, this wild, radical man who says outrageous things like love everybody, love your neighbor, love the stranger at your gate, love your enemy. None of us are going to stay here perfectly all the time. We’re all going to have Law of Moses moments, or the third kingdom experience. But we are destined, we are called, and we keep going until we arrive to become more full citizens of the fourth. Everybody has heartfelt moments of energy from what I call the fourth kingdom. We’re not locked down here in the third. We all spend some time in the fourth – we all express love, we do good things, we are generous from time to time. That’s our actions and God-ness in the heart of the place that Jesus called us to be. Our goal is to know that we’re not strangers to this place. We function here. Our goal is to try to become naturalized, full citizens of this new country that is not really new because we’ve spent a lot of time here. Once it is our residence, all of our impulses will be infused with the energy of love so the fifth – which is our voice, everything we speak – will have been developed somewhere in the lower kingdom, then build, build, build, and infused with love. We will only speak love. The heart for love is a very exciting thing. This is the true connection to godliness. That’s what we were born for. When the divine feminine and the divine masculine first got together through the powers of love, our beingness came from that. We are sprung from love to be loved, to share love, to create more love. There’s also a moment in the main character’s journey when she sees history and an ancestor. In your work, pioneers and ancestors show up frequently. I have a grandmother who walked across the plains at age eight. I have a great-grandfather in the Mormon Battalion, another great-grandfather on the ship Brooklyn. I am inundated with pioneer DNA. From them, I received honor toward them and the concept of pioneering, and I believe that we still are called to be pioneers. One of my poems that so many people love – I have made it a tradition to post on Pioneer Day on Facebook – is a poem called “Pioneers.” I am certain that the pioneering things that I have done with ideas are an expression of the genetic inheritance that I have from my many ancestral pioneers. PIONEERS My people were Mormon pioneers. Is the blood still good? They stood in awe as truth Flew by like a dove And dropped a feather in the West. Where truth flies you follow If you are a pioneer. I have searched the skies And now and then Another feather has fallen. I have packed the handcart again Packed it with the precious things And thrown away the rest. I will sing by the fires at night Out there on uncharted ground Where I am my own captain of tens Where I blow the bugle Bring myself to morning prayer Map out the miles And never know when or where Or if at allI will finally say,“This is the place.” I face the plains On a good day for walking. The sun risesAnd the mist clears. I will be all right: My people were Mormon pioneers. I also have pioneers on both sides and feel their DNA in me. Can you talk about navigating the Church as a pioneer now? A lot of people are curious, “How come you have not been excommunicated?” What’s to excommunicate? I do only good. It is true that way back there in the 70s, there was that little flap about the Equal Rights Amendment. But that got worked out. My experience with all of my bishops and stake presidents has been really, really good. I’m sorry for those people who have not had church leadership like I have had.Because it’s on my mind right now – on Sunday, I went to see the bishop, and he’s a brand new guy. I said, “I am one of your somewhat unorthodox, but still highly useful, members of the Church.” I had three books to give to him and his wife – The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, Finding Mother God, and this new one, The Love Map. I said, “These books contain issues you need to know about because a lot of members of the Church are very questioning on some very important subjects – the concept of God the Mother, and eternal polygamy, which is devastatingly cruel and affects many women so badly. These things affect people in your congregation. I know that for a fact because I’ve talked to them.” I had a fine conversation with him, and nobody was uncomfortable. What I’m saying here is that the guts of the third level of The Love Map and the power and love of the heart combined to allow me to be a pioneer in these subjects. I’m not afraid to talk to the men, and I do it respectfully. But I do it with power. They know that there’s something important when I talk to them. I urge all LDS women who feel they have something important to move us forward on some of these issues that we all think about and we talk about in our little private cliques – I want to urge everybody to be brave enough, no matter what comes. I know that I have been protected geographically here. I said to my bishop, “If I had been in Utah in the 1980s, I may have gone the way.” He was aware of the September Six in 1993. I’m just lucky, I guess, living where I am and having developed the history that people would not want to publicly try to get rid of me. But what’s to want to get rid of? Mother Wove the Morning I do good work in the Church, even though some think that it’s not because I am working on some things that the Brethren have said, “No, we’re not going to do that.” Well, we’re past that. We are doing it. It is a historical necessity that we do this work to bring women up, which does not bring men down, to make us all equal in terms of value. We should bring our individual gifts here, and they should be equally valued. I mentioned that during the 90s, I was busily doing 300 performances of Mother Wove the Morning, in which I played sixteen women throughout history in search of God the Mother. I often visited with my leadership and said, “I want you to know what I’m doing.” The stake president came to see the play three times, bringing high-powered guests. He told me, “Yes, I get calls from Salt Lake about you from time to time. When I get a call that says, should we do something about Sister Pearson, I say to them, leave her alone. She does better PR for this church than you could ever buy, leave her alone.” I later learned there were seven times he received calls about me. Whatever the outcome, we have to do what our power center combined with our love center – our guts combined with our heart – insists that we do.It took a lot of guts to put on that play – it was a terrifying but thrilling experience. But we need to know the history of humanity in terms of a female deity – searching for, finding, not finding, all of it. We’re at a point in history that it is one of our assignments. We must bring back the concept of God the Mother and yes, She is here. We are the ones who are blind. She is not hidden away in some celestial nursery, giving birth to baby after baby after baby. She is not being protected by the Father because we’ve been so bad about His name that He’s protecting her name. That is such nonsense. She is powerful. She is there. She is here. We have only to open our eyes and our hearts and our vocabularies. We must. We will. We all need to be pioneers in whatever way we feel called to be. You talk about some really hard things. I think of you in some ways as the conscience of our community that says, “This is still a problem; this is still causing pain. We need to look at it, and we need to address it.” You do it in a way that is clear and loving. Even if it’s a hard thing to hear, there’s still love in it. I get the sense that your intention is to heal and to build up Zion. If anybody wants to read The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, that’s precisely what I do there. I did it consciously, and I did not do it artificially. I asked for a meeting with my state presidency before I wrote that book, and their wives, all six of them. I told them exactly what I was going to do and nobody tried to dissuade me. I said, “You’re going to be surprised when this book comes out. I say that Brother Joseph made an error when he brought in polygamy, that God had nothing to do with it. At the same time, I am going to say so many fine things about Joseph, you’re going to love him even more. You’re going to be very confused. I’m going to love Joseph in this book and also say he made a terrible error. And it’s an error that must be corrected by the contemporary leadership.” I have developed a skill for saying hard things, strongly and respectively, and without equivocation. This is how I see it, and I believe this with all my heart. You’ve been so generous sharing so much of your journey with the public. Right now in your life, what does discipleship look like for you? Just continue doing what I’ve been doing. A good disciple is not necessarily just a yes-woman or a yes-man. A disciple is one who follows, who is in the circle of activity, of expanding the work. I think a disciple expands the work and doesn’t follow with blinders. Discipleship is to see what – to me – is so obvious and needs to be addressed. Because I can see it, I’m called to act on it. People who don’t see it can’t act on it. But I have seen it and felt it – I’m thinking specifically of these two things, eternal polygamy and the absence of God the Mother. Those are two hugely important things that must be addressed. I had the hunger for it – studying and finding some answers, and the experience of being able to use words to express all that. It was beyond clear to me that I was called to write both of those things, The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy and the poems of Finding Mother God. Each of us has something we observe that we think, this is not helpful, this is hurtful. If we can see it, we are called to do something about it. I appreciate you framing it this way. This is a real frustration for me as somebody in this work. I have things I feel called to say in my own way. Sometimes I am dismissed by members of the community that my faith is faltering. But they’re not considering that it’s actually because I am deeply rooted in my faith; that because I am so faithful, I can’t let it stand. Carol Lynn Pearson If someone cares enough about the community to say, “I see some pain going on, and I cannot stand here and see this pain and not do anything …” If we were out in a large group of people and saw somebody suddenly fainting, or in an accident, all of us would have the impulse to help. That same impulse should be in us as we look around in our community that is struggling to be Zion, and say, “I perceive things here that are not worthy of Zion.” And because I perceive them, I am the one who is called to address them. We’re the lucky ones who see the hurt and therefore must address it. That’s a thrilling thing to do. It isn’t satisfying to me to sit and watch. No, no, we came here to participate. Today is the day that women have got to stand up and participate in a way that is intelligent and strong and kind. Soft and hard at the same moment. The major test right now is the concept of bringing back into our consciousness, bringing back into the family, the Mother. We have seen significant adverse responses to that but nevertheless – it is essential to speak up kindly, correctly, respectfully. That’s one of the things I love about being part of the LDS Women Project. Neylan [McBain] was inspired to form this project as the grassroots. We create what we want in our wards, communities, and families. I see the Church as bi-directional, not just waiting for Salt Lake headquarters to tell us what to do and let it trickle down. We can be change agents in ways that honor doctrine and many things, but challenge policies and governance that aren’t serving us. We plant seeds for others to think about. The visit I had with my new bishop was so satisfying. I said that there are so many things about what must happen to bring about equality of valuing between maleness and femaleness. I invited him to listen in sacrament meeting to every pronoun we use in talking about divinity, about heaven – those pronouns are all male. What does that do to the psyches of the young girls and the young boys in the hall? And the women and the men, even women who say it doesn’t bother them. I beg to differ because our communal psyches absorb that the good stuff, the divine stuff, is masculine. We are the observers, and that’s not what anybody wants, but we have to be brave enough to do something about it. And of course, all the songs we sing are to the masculine, except occasionally when we sing “the grave yield up her dead.” We get the grave. They get the heavens. Once you stop to think about it, it goes on and on. You wonder, what is this? How could we not have noticed it all these years? That’s not helpful. I have one more poem I want to read to you. DURING THE SACRAMENT The eight-year-old, newly baptized, takes the blessed bit of bread from the silver tray in her brother’s hand, glances that her father who is always on the stand, and whispers to her mother, “When I’m twelve I’ll get to pass the sacrament, won’t I?” “Shhhhh!” The voice of her ten-year-old brother in a loud whisper across their mother’s folded arms. “No.” “Why?” “Because you’re a girl.” The eight-year-old’s mind, full of every Harry Potter book, half of Louisa May Alcott, and many other worthy friends, speaks silently, “Maybe when I’m thirteen.” The voice of her sixteen-year-old brother who kneels at the white table on the stand to bless the tiny cups of water – “that they do always remember Him.” “I love Jesus. Maybe when I’m fourteen. Absolutely when I’m fifteen, He will remember me.”Silence. Then the voice of her other Brother, sweeter than Good Night Moon. “I do always remember you.” Jesus and our Mother and our Father, I believe, are right here, doing Their good work for all of us. It’s us who are still so stubborn. Protecting patriarchy is a cause that is not worthy of the energy. I feel that poem captures that assumption – as we’re raised in the gospel, singing I am a Child of God, hearing all these wonderful things, but then a moment of divergence. Why wouldn’t she think she has the same opportunities? But that painful realization. I do love the Comforter’s whisper to tell her she is valued and remembered. Every young woman and man is valuable. All of us are valuable. But we’re losing a lot of young women who are not willing to wait. We have the power to bless each other. I feel to bless you and all the women who are working toward all the lovely things of good report and praiseworthy that we have been talking about. And what could be more praiseworthy than bringing our Mother back into the family. At A Glance Name: Carol Lynn Pearson Age: 83 Location: Walnut Creek, California Marital History: Married to Gerald Pearson in 1966, divorced in 1984 Children: Emily, John, Aaron, Katharine Occupation: Writer Convert to the Church: Born from many lines of Mormon pioneers Schools Attended: B.A. and M.A. in Theatre from BYU Languages Spoken At Home: English Favorite Hymn: A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief Website or Social Media You Would Like Featured: http://carollynnpearson.com Interview Produced by Elizabeth Ostler

NEW TESTAMENT Matthew 1–2; Luke 1–2; John 2:2–5; 19:25–27; Acts 1:14.(Prophesied of in scripture: Isa. 7:14; 1 Ne. 11:13–20; Mosiah 3:8; Alma 7:10) ALMA 7:10 The Lord has called me before I was born. Mary's earthly mission was foretold by many prophets and recorded in scripture long before she was born (see Isa. 7:14; 1 Ne. 11:13–20; Mosiah 3:8; Alma 7:10 ). Much like Mary, before the creation of the earth, we were foreordained to carry out certain responsibilities and duties. As we prove ourselves worthy and ready, we will be given opportunities to fulfill these assignments. ​ Russell M. Nelson taught, "Our Heavenly Father has reserved many of His most noble spirits—perhaps, I might say, His finest team—for this final phase. Those noble spirits—those finest players, those heroes—are you!" He continued,"...these surely are the latter days, and the Lord is hastening His work to gather Israel...And if you choose to, if you want to, you can be a big part of it" (Russell M. Nelson and Sister Wendy W. Nelson, Hope of Isreal Worldwide Youth Devotional, June 2018). ​What wonderful mission were you sent to fulfill here on earth? To learn more visit Gospel Topic: Foreordination. See also Mary and Joseph by Robert J. Matthews. LUKE 1:26-38 As we accept and magnify God’s will, He can do great things through us. Mary humbly responded to the angel that she would do what God asked of her. She did not know how things would work out, or any details of what was to come, but with trust in God she accepted His will for her. Because she said yes, she became the mother of Jesus Christ—the Savior of the world. ​ There may be times we feel that the work He asks us to do is impossible, but let us remember Dieter F. Uchtdorf when he said, "I promise that the Lord will cause unimaginable things to come from your righteous labors" (Dieter F. Uchtdorf, God Will Do Something Unimaginable General Conference, November 2020). Have you ever received a calling for which you did not feel prepared? What blessings have you seen from embracing your calling? ​ See also the General Conference talk given by L. Whitney Clayton, Whatsoever He Saith Unto You, Do It. Learn more about Mary by reading Magnifying the Lord: Mary's Example For Us by Sheryl Condie Kempton and Mary the Mother of Jesus by Gaye Strathearn. LUKE 1:39-56 We are not alone in our trials and challenges. Elisabeth’s miraculous pregnancy was a sign to Mary that she was not alone. Bonnie L. Oscarson said, "I can only imagine how very important the three months they spent together were to both of them as they were able to talk together, empathize with each other, and support one another in their unique callings" (Bonnie L. Oscarson, Sisterhood: Oh, How We Need Each Other General Conference, April 2014). How comforting can it be when there is at least one other person who has some sense of what we are going through? ​ Taking it one step further, it's difficult to believe that Mary and Elisabeth's paths were not divinely directed to cross. As Ronald A. Rasband explained, "There are no coincidences, we are placed in each other's lives for a reason" (Ronald A. Rasband, By Divine Design General Conference, October 2017). Have you ever felt a friendship of yours has been led by divine design? ​ For more, listen to The Doctrine of Friendship with Melinda Brown on the Magnify podcast, produced by LDSLiving. JOHN 19:25-27 I can teach my children by example. Mary was Jesus's first disciple, but she was also his first example. Let's remember her response to the angel, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word" (Luke 1:38). Many years later, having grown up witnessing the remarkable and unwavering courage, sacrifice, and obedience of a mortal mother, Jesus Christ echoed her words in Gethsemane saying, "not my will, but thine, be done" (Luke 22:42). ​ Heavenly Father has given latter-day parents the sacred responsibility to prepare his children for the challenges of the last days. Although Mary's vital role as the mother of Christ is explicitly unique, what can we learn from her story of discipleship? What are some things you can do to turn your home into a sanctuary for your children? Consider ways you can strengthen your family by being a good example. ​ See also Be Thou an Example by Jeffrey R. Holland. You can also watch "Strengthening Our Kids for the Last Days" with Tad R. Callister and Dina Alexander. CONVERSATION STARTERS How can you prepare to be willing to do whatever God asks of you? What experiences have you had when the Lord has helped you as you served? How have you seen God's hand in your friendships? What sacrifices does a parent make for thier children and what blessings come from such sacrifices? OTHER STUDY RESOURCES Margot Hovley, Mary, Mother of the Savior Ensign, December 2019. Susan Easton Black, Mary, His Mother Ensign, January 1991. Mary Pratt Parrish, Mary Ensign, December 1971. Jeffrey R. Holland, Behold, Thy Mother General Conference, October 2015. Gordon B. Hinckley, The Women in Our Lives General Conference, October 2004. Howard W. Hunter, To the Women of the Church General Conference, October 1992. Russell M. Nelson, Woman—Of Infinite Worth General Conference, October 1989. Ezra Taft Benson, The Honored Place of Woman General Conference, October 1981. Mary F. Foulger Motherhood and the Family General Conference, October 1980. Naomi M. Shumway Teaching Our Little Women General Conference, October 1979. Neal A. Maxwell, The Women of God General Conference, April 1978. Thomas S. Monson, My Personal Hall of Fame General Conference, October 1974. PERSONAL STUDY IDEAS Study what it means to align your will with God's. Clyde J. Williams, According to Our Will Ensign, September 2016. David A. Bednar, Accepting the Lord's Will and Timing Ensign, August 2016. "I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me" (John 6:38). Desire to discover what you have been called to do here on earth. Susana Lyou Mantle, Finding My Purpose Ensign, June 2009. Study your patriarchal blessing. Seek to understand what it means to "rise to your call". Henry B. Eyring, Rise to Your Call General Conference, October 2002. ACTIVITIES Return the favor. Think of a friend who has been there for you. Ask Heavenly Father in prayer to guide you to recognize an opportunity to serve that someone or a way to honor them for all the good they have done (Mosiah 2:17). Invite friends over for a Sip-n-Share. Host a soda bar for your friends. Make it fun with a variety of syrups and other delicious mix-ins. After you've all made your drink concoctions, gather around a table or sit in a circle. One by one, take turns sharing what spiritual learning moments you have had that week. Maybe you have a new insight you gained from rereading a scripture or a gospel principle you applied to your life. Take the time to simply enjoy, learn, and support one another.

DOCTRINE & COVENANTS Doctrine & Covenants Section 25 DOCTRINE & COVENANTS 25:1-10 You are an elect child of God and He has a special work for you to do. Seeking divine guidance for her life, the Lord outlined Emma Smith's calling in Section 25 of the Doctrine & Covenants. She was counseled to be an aid and comforter to her husband, to write, learn, expound scriptures, and select hymns. Emma was an active participant in the restoration, enduring years of trials and persecution at the side of her husband. Yet, she persevered and fulfilled all that was asked of her. Gordon B. Hinckley explained, "...under the plan of the Lord women carry tremendous responsibilities and they are accountable for the fulfillment of those responsibilities." He continued, "Each of you is an elect lady. You have come out of the world as partakers of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. You have made your election, and if you are living worthy of it, the Lord will honor you in it and magnify you" (Gordon B. Hinckley, If Thou Art Faithful General Women's Meeting, November 1984). Consider what work the Lord has for you. Ponder on ways you can prepare yourself to answer His call. ​ See also A Work for Me to Do by Julie B. Beck and Decision Making—The Lord’s Way by Steven C. Wheelwright. DOCTRINE & COVENANTS 25:11-12 "...the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me" Emma was entrusted to compile a book of hymns, so that the people may worship with song. Some may dismiss this task as trivial and not see the magnitude of influence that resided in this sacred calling. Russell M. Nelson taught, "Remember, music has power to provide spiritual nourishment. It has healing power. It has power to facilitate worship; it allows us to contemplate the Atonement and the Restoration of the gospel with its saving principles and exalting ordinances. Music provides power for us to express prayerful thoughts and bear testimony of sacred truths" (Russell M. Nelson, Power and Protection Provided by Worthy Music BYU Speeches, May 2008). What blessings have you received from incorporating spiritual music into your life? ​ Learn more about Why Emma Smith didn't let the destruction of her first hymn book stop her by Jennifer Reeder, excerpted from First: The Life and Faith of Emma Smith. DOCTRINE & COVENANTS 25:13-16 As I cleave to my covenants, I will receive joy. The Lord said to Emma "...lift up thy heart and rejoice, and cleave unto the covenants which thou hast made." Barbara Thompson said, "As we have faith in Christ and cleave unto our covenants, we will receive the joy spoken of in the holy scriptures and promised by our latter-day prophets" (Barbara Thompson, Cleave unto the Covenants General Conference, October 2011). What blessings can we receive if we keep our covenants? ​ See also The Power, Joy, and Love of Covenant Keeping by Linda K. Burton. CONVERSATION STARTERS What can you tell about the kind of person Emma was from the things she was asked to do? What hymn has played a significant part in building your testimony? How has being a covenant keeper brought you joy? OTHER STUDY RESOURCES Valeen Tippetts Avery and Linda King Newell, The Elect Lady: Emma Hale Smith Ensign, September 1979. Gracia N. Jones, My Great-Great-Grandmother, Emma Hale Smith Ensign, August 1992. Jennifer Reeder, I was an Active Participant: Emma Hale Smith and the Scriptures Ensign, March 2021. Jennifer Reeder, Emma Protected Scripture Ensign, March 2021. Jennifer Reeder, Emma Smith—Giving All That Is Required All In: An LDS Living Podcast | Episode 123, March 2021. Jennifer Reeder, Understanding Emma Smith Latter-day Saint Women Podcast, May 2021. Doctrine & Covenants Student Manual: Section 25 PERSONAL STUDY IDEAS Learn more about the influence of music. Music Will Continue to Have an Important Role in Primary Primary General Presidency and Board, 2018. ACTIVITIES Share your favorite hymn. Share your feelings about a particular hymn and how it has made a difference in your life.

OLD TESTAMENT Book of Esther ESTHER 4:14 God has a divine purpose for my life. Esther realized that while she was in a rare position to help her people, doing so would put her own life in danger. As she hesitated to take on this challenging task, Mordecai gave her this question to consider, "And who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:14). Her courage to continue forward may have come from the timeless certainty that God has a plan and a divine purpose for each of us. ​ Camille N. Johnson said, "Esther is another beautiful example of letting God prevail. Rather than sticking with a cautious narrative of self-preservation, she exercised faith, turning herself completely over to the Lord" (Camille N. Johnson, Invite Christ to Author Your Story General Conference, October 2021). We have been taught that God is willing to make known His will for us, but that we must invite Him to do so. Are you willing to ask and then accept the answer you receive? ​ Consider how you can prepare to invite the Lord to become the author of your story. ​ See also The Faith to Ask and Then to Act by Henry B. Eyring. ESTHER 4:16 Miracles can happen when we exercise our faith together. In the book of Matthew we learn that "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20). Esther understood that when we unite with others to fast and pray for the Lord’s help, we invite His blessings and miracles into our lives. She instructed, "Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me...I also and my maidens will fast likewise" (Esther 4:16). What difficult things are you facing that you might want to fast and pray about? Who would you ask to join you in your fasting and prayers? ​ Learn more about the blessings that may come from fasting by reading The Law of the Fast by Joseph B. Wirthlin. ESTHER 5-7 When we are on the Lord's errand, we are entitled to His help. After the King promised Esther anything she desired, it was surprising that she chose to invite the King and Haman to a feast rather than immediately make a request on behalf of her people. However, we have been taught that “the Holy Ghost … will show unto [us] all things what [we] should do” (2 Nephi 32:5). Although her actions may have seemed strange, we can see the Lord's hand at work in them, ultimately resulting in the salvation of her people. When we do our best and act upon the promptings we receive, the Lord will add to our efforts, even unto deliverance (1 Nephi 1:20). What blessings have you experienced as a result of following an unusual or unexpected prompting? ​ Find more examples in the scriptures about divine guidance. See also By Divine Design by Ronald A. Rasband and The Tender Mercies of the Lord by David A. Bednar. CONVERSATION STARTERS God is not mentioned in the Book of Esther, however, where do you see him in her story? Where have you seen God's hand in your story? How can you bless the lives of others in your particular circumstances? How do you prepare to do difficult things? Who are your maidens? OTHER STUDY RESOURCES Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Resources for Children. David Butler & Emily Belle Freeman, Come, Follow Me: Story of Queen Esther Don't Miss This Podcast, 2022. Melinda Wheelwright Brown, How to Identify & Fulfill Your Divine Purpose Like a Watered Garden Podcast | Episode 32, July 2022. Our Turtle House, Esther Part I: Dr. Ariel Clark Silver, Follow Him Podcast, July 2022. Our Turtle House, Esther Part II: Dr. Ariel Clark Silver, Follow Him Podcast, July 2022. Kaytlin Jenks, Queen Esther: An Example of Faith, Courage, and Doing the Right Thing, Liahona, July 2022. Ciro Schmeil, An Instrument in the Hands of the Lord, Liahona, July 2022. Michael T. Ringwood, For God So Loved Us, General Conference, April 2022. Camille N. Johnson, Invite Christ to Author Your Story General Conference, October 2021. Thomas S. Monson, May You Have Courage General Conference, April 2009. James E. Faust, The Virtues of Righteous Daughters of God, General Conference, April 2003. Mary Ellen W. Smoot, For Such a Time as This, General Conference, October 1997. John H. Vandenberg, My Brother's Keeper, General Conference, April 1971. PERSONAL STUDY IDEAS Seek to deepen your trust in the Lord. D. Todd Christofferson, Our Relationship with God General Conference, April 2022. Michalyn Steele, Choose to Trust the Lord BYU Speeches, June 2019. Bonnie H. Cordon, Trust in the Lord and Lean Not General Conference, May 2017. Study to understand the power of fasting. Henry B. Eyring, Is Not This the Fast That I Have Chosen? General Conference, April 2015. ACTIVITIES Learn about the joyous Jewish holiday Purim. Purim is a holiday that celebrates the bravery of Queen Esther and the survival of the Jews. It is a fun event with some amazing traditions. Learn more about this wonderful event by conversing with your local Jewish community.