Sara Walker is working toward becoming a therapist to help women going through their own recovery process from their husbands’ addiction to pornography. Please introduce yourself and your situation. My husband and I had been married for three months when he told me he’d been looking at porn. We’ve now been married for almost twenty years. As our marriage progressed, he would tell me a little bit and hide the rest. It wasn’t until he hit rock bottom in 2016 that he fully confessed to me, to the bishop, everything that he had done, that he was able to make progress forward. I felt so alone, lost, hopeless when we were dealing with it early in our marriage. Back then, it was really difficult to find resources and most people didn’t talk about the problem. It’s talked about more now, but still not much. It was lonely, and hard. I don’t want other women to feel like they have to deal with this alone because they don’t. There are books, online groups. People are starting to realize that porn is not healthy. For a long time it’s been pushed as a healthy way to deal with sexuality. It’s not healthy at all. Society is finally starting to realize that. That’s why I talk about it – I don’t want people to feel alone. I also want addicts to feel like they can talk about it. When my husband is doing better in his recovery, is when he can talk about it and doesn’t feel alone himself. Finding a recovery group for him was really beneficial in that way. There’s power in speaking out and not hiding. In the Bible, at the beginning when God and Christ are creating the earth, God said, “Let there be light.” There’s so much power in what we say and how we speak, it’s important to learn how to do that in a healthy way about this issue. How did you learn to speak about it in a healthy way? I joined a group called WORTH – Women Of Rebirth and Therapeutic Healing – part of a larger organization in Utah called Life Changing Services (LCS). It was here I was able to tell my story for the first time in a “safe” space with others who would understand. Finding a group that allows you to process aspects of betrayal in a healthy way is vital to recovery for women. After I had been with them for about 18 months, I worked as their intake coordinator. There’s a screening process to make sure women are healthy enough to be in group therapy. I heard hundreds of stories of women dealing with all different aspects of the issue. Some women didn’t know their husband had a problem until the police came and took their computer and husband to jail for child porn. Other women would discover issues when they went to the doctor and found they had contracted various diseases. Stories like these are heartbreaking and not uncommon. Not every woman or marriage deals with these kinds of issues, many have discovered things accidentally. Please don’t think because your story is not as extreme as these that it’s not worth telling, or seeking recovery for. I’m currently a senior at BYU-Idaho studying marriage and family science in the hopes of pursuing a doctorate in psychology. I want to understand addiction and betrayal trauma on a clinical level so I can continue to speak out and help others. Are you intending to be a therapist eventually? I’d like to do therapy, but also teach and do research. The field of study for addiction is still somewhat new. When Alcoholics Anonymous came out with the 12-step program, that was pivotal for addicts. Before that, addiction had been treated as a mental illness and in some cases mental illness can play a part. But there is a lot of research now about treating addiction more holistically. As those who struggle with addiction overcome shame and poor interpersonal relationships, they can find healing. Clearly, there is still much to be learned considering recidivism rates can be as high as 90%, depending on the type of addiction. What researchers are looking at is how to prevent relapse. It really is a whole life change. A person with an addiction has to change their entire life. The 12 Steps are successful because they create awareness. They’re finding more ways to help people with that but there is so much more that can be learned and done to help recovery. What would you say to someone in the situation of learning that their spouse is addicted to pornography? Find someone trustworthy to talk with. Start researching online – find a group, find a therapist. Get the help you need. You are not crazy, you are not alone. That doesn’t necessarily mean going to the bishop. As much as I’d like to send people to the bishop, a lot of bishops struggle with understanding the betrayal trauma a woman goes through. Bishops are generally not trained therapists and they can make mistakes and missteps in helping women deal with the betrayal. I actually did a podcast on this with Leading Saints (formerly Leading LDS). I want women to understand that in seeking help for betrayal trauma, it’s important to get professional assistance. When you seek out the bishop, go for a priesthood blessing or temporal help if you need to. But also go to a therapist or look online for communities that have the resources and the ability to help. SANON, SA Lifeline, Bloom for Women, and WORTH group all have online help. A lot of women say they feel like they’re crazy – no one believes them. There is a term – gaslighting – that happens. It is when one person works to make the other person question their reality. Often, the addict feels guilt and a lot of shame, so he makes the wife feel like she’s crazy when she points things out to him. The wife might say something like, “We’re not as close as we were, you don’t talk to me, what’s going on.” The husband will shift things and point out how it’s not his fault etc. They don’t even do it intentionally, it’s a defense mechanism for them. Please, stand in your truth and seek help from trained, outside resources. What IS a woman feeling in all of this? She’s feeling a lot of things – overwhelmed, anxious, a lot of weight on her, in over her head and doesn’t know how to deal with things. She can often go into what we call survival mode. Loneliness is powerful too. When there is addiction present, the person with the addiction checks out of a lot of regular life. The spouse has to step into two roles and it can feel really heavy and lonely. A lot of women go through what is called betrayal trauma – they can experience a lot of symptoms that are similar with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). If a woman is seeking professional help, she can be diagnosed with PTSD. You run the gamut with a husband who is still a good person and trying to be nice, but dealing with addiction, to a husband who is abusive and eventually gets taken to jail. Depending on where your spouse is at, and where you are, there can be all the feelings. When you’re trying to get into recovery, the number one thing you need to do is make your connection with God. That can be really difficult because you can feel betrayed by God. I have felt and heard other women say things like, “I felt like I was supposed to marry him, why would God want me to marry him if He knew this would happen?” I had to struggle through these feelings and come to renegotiate my relationship with God. I can say that although this has been THE most difficult thing I have gone through, now that I am on “the other side,” I can also say it has been one of the BEST things that happened to me. I have come to understand God and the Atonement on a much deeper and more personal level than before. How did you personally deal with that feeling of being alone and disconnected from God as well as your husband? We had to go through a disciplinary council and my husband was disfellowshipped for a year. When I went to church, a few times I had to get up and leave. It felt like the things others were saying were so cliché and trite. I would go out to my car and just cry. I felt so alone, frustrated and angry. I really had to clear away the clichés and trite sayings and come to an understanding of gospel principles. Here is where I landed, and how I currently view things. I am okay with saying that my faith is evolving and growing, and in a few years maybe I will understand this differently. But for what it’s worth, this is my current lens. We know God is omniscient, He knows everything. Because He is omniscient, people want to say that God knew that this was going to happen to me and that God knew my husband would be a porn addict. I don’t want to say it’s not true, but this is how I’ve come to terms with it. Life is like a mountain. God sits at the top and has a clear view down the mountain. Our life goal is to get to the top of the mountain where God is. Our agency allows us to choose the path up the mountain. Depending on the path we choose, we will have certain obstacles to overcome. Other people climbing the mountain can make choices that knock rocks down, a snowstorm may blow in, fog can enclose our path, etc. Some things happen because other people choose poorly and it affects us. But some things happen simply as part of living on this Earth. God sees it all and is willing to help us maneuver through the obstacles. We just have to reach out to Him and be willing to change course or push through the obstacle. I hesitate to say that God knew my husband was going to make some really poor choices that would be so hurtful. I do think God saw the path my husband was on and knew what some of my obstacles might be because of it. What principles and doctrines of the gospel were most important to you in this recovery process? The first task is to come to understand that God loves you, is aware of you, that He wants to help you.The second thing that is really important for women to understand is that because our spouse has their agency, we can’t pray them into being better. I know almost every one of you has tried. I used to try to talk to my husband about recovery. I would make suggestions and I often lied to others to cover for his poor behavior. I finally realized there was literally nothing I could do to help him. That was a really painful realization. Heavenly Father helped me realize that I could not control him because it would be taking away his agency. And he didn’t need another Savior. He already had one. When I realized all the implications of that, I just sobbed for a good, long time. Then I had to trust that God would take care of me and my kids, regardless of what my husband chose to do. That put me on a path of personal recovery and discovery – I needed to order my life the way God wanted it ordered. If my husband chose to get into recovery and come along with us, he was welcome. If he didn’t, that wasn’t my problem to try to solve anymore. I learned to focus on what I had control over in my life. If you haven’t read Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, I highly recommend it. What was your next step after coming to those realizations? I felt like I needed to go back to school. I didn’t know, I still don’t know what my husband will do. He may go back and have a relapse. He may choose something that’s detrimental to our marriage. We’ve talked about boundaries and what will happen if he chooses certain things. I’m really focused on what God wants me to do in this life – preparing myself to take care of myself and my children if it comes to that. I hate to call it self-reliance but that’s really what it is. Maurice Harker, the director of LCS, has an analogy of the pioneer women in the early days of the Church. Imagine you’re one of the women being driven from Nauvoo and your husband is a bum. If he’s not doing his part, if he thinks bringing you a log for the fire is sufficient, you don’t let him get in the wagon. Your goal is to get to Zion. If he chooses to participate in the trek fully and completely as a partner, going to Zion will be a lot easier. If he doesn’t, you have to be prepared to go it alone. That’s really difficult, especially in our culture. I know a lot of women (members in general) struggle with that idea. If you read Seven Habits, you will find the principles of independence and interdependence. That is vital to understanding this aspect. I’m sure that’s different for every couple – both the path into addiction, and the path to recovery. A lot of these guys are really good guys who struggle with addiction – the psychologist in me can see my husband’s situation. He has a lot of issues of his own that he has to deal with. When people start turning to addiction, they shut off connection and empathy. The problem with marrying someone who is struggling with addiction is, they’re kind of stuck at the emotional level of whenever the addiction started, say about the age of 15. They have to start growing connection and empathy on their own to catch up as they find recovery. My husband has been working on his own recovery and I talk to him about things that I’m learning. When he’s not in addict-brain, he understands where I’m coming from. He’s had longer periods of sobriety, so he doesn’t hold it against me. But I’ve had to learn to not be his therapist or his coach. For a long time I took on a rescuer role, but I can’t do that anymore and he has to learn to rescue himself. He has a lot of maturing to do, and he’s learning that because he is a good person who struggles with an addiction. He can get mad about boundaries but he understands why they’re there. The hardest part of boundaries for me is feeling justified in keeping them. I like to try to talk myself out of it because… Understanding and implementing healthy boundaries is another really important aspect of recovery. Can you explain a little more about boundaries and not being a rescuer? That seems like a pretty common thing to do as someone tries to help their spouse overcome a challenge. Karpman’s Drama Triangle is a cycle of social interaction that’s been around since the 1960s. The three points are rescuer, victim, and persecutor. My understanding is that in the cycle, the addict acts as a victim of the addiction. The wife sees him as a persecutor – he’s doing these things to me, to our family. Women will then go into a rescuer mentality to rescue their families. When they try, the addict sees the rescuer as a persecutor. “Why are you so mean to me?” You’ll never win when you stay in the cycle anywhere. It doesn’t matter. You have to step up into the empowerment triangle. The empowerment triangle is coach, challenger, and creator. I don’t know that I love that every aspect of the empowerment triangle, but I love the creator part. When I set healthy boundaries, I am creating safety for my family and for myself if you choose addiction. I’m creating a boundary to reinforce that you can’t behave this way and avoid consequences. The addict has to bump up against those boundaries to start wanting to change. A rescuer clears away boundaries and becomes an enabler. It’s easy to get stuck in the drama triangle. You’re a persecutor, or you’re a victim of their behavior. Or we want them to rescue us by changing. That won’t happen, because they’re not capable of it yet, and being rescued generally is – well, that’s the Savior’s job. Jesus Christ saves us. When we look to someone else to rescue us, generally speaking, that’s not healthy. That’s an interesting way to bring this back around to relying on God in our challenges. In the Book of Mormon, it says that God is a co-creator and wants to create with us, not for us. In Ether 2:23, the Lord asks the Brother of Jared, “What would you have me do?” He did the same thing with Nephi building the boat. God shows him the plans, but Nephi has to go find the ore, build the bellows, and melt the ore to make the tools to even start the ship. God is a co-creator. If we want to co-create with Him, we can’t stay a victim. Not that God doesn’t send people to assist and help us – He does do that – but not in a rescuer mentality. A lot of women don’t feel very empowered, and they really need to feel like they have power to do something with their lives. That’s why it’s important to talk about pornography addiction and recovery as the spouse of someone with that challenge. Not in a way that slanders your husband, or to have people see you as a victim. You need to seek help for yourself. Sheri Dew said that God wants a powerful people. Even though we’ve been handed a crappy situation, we can still be powerful in that situation. Resources:Sara Walker’s interview with Leading SaintsInterview with Rhyll on The Mormon Women ProjectBloom for WomenThe Betrayed, The Addict, The ExpertSA LifelineLife Changing ServicesWORTH groupS-ANON Books:What Can I Do About Me? by Rhyll Croshaw.Treating Trauma from Sexual Betrayal by Dr. Kevin SkinnerBoundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend At A Glance Name: Sara Walker Age: 43 Location: Amity, Oregon Marital History: Married Children: 5 Occupation: Mom, student, teacher Convert to the Church?: Life-long member, converted throughout my life Schools Attended: Chemeketa Community College, Ricks College, George Wythe College. BYU-Idaho Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: Depends- currently Redeemer of Israel Interview Produced By: Trina Caudle

Editorial Note: Tandi passed away a few months after this interview on November 28, 2020. We are honored that she entrusted us with part of her story. Our deepest sympathies go out to her family and friends. Tandi Bronston was diagnosed with a glioblastoma brain tumor at the end of 2013, with only a 50% survival rate past the first 18 months. Seven years later, after multiple surgeries, she maintains a positive attitude despite her continuing battle with brain cancer. Tell me about your background in the Church. I grew up with the Church and the gospel in my life. I was inactive from 2005 until 2012 when we moved to Maryland. After three or four months of being there, I started feeling like I was missing something. I had a prompting that I needed to go back to church one Sunday morning. It’s crazy to think about, incredible. I had this prompting so I went to church that day. When the sacrament came, I didn’t partake because I wasn’t active, but I felt another prompting to meet the bishop. Usually, bishops are busy after meetings, but particularly that day, he was greeting people after sacrament meeting and he noticed me. I asked if he had a moment because I had an overwhelming feeling of being home. I needed to repent and I needed to recommit. Over about the next six months, I was able to come back through the repentance process and get a calling, and to take the sacrament. All those things. Within the year, I was able to get my temple recommend. It was an incredible experience. I have to say that my faith was super strong and intense during those times because I just felt promptings. Tanderra Bronston When did the cancer diagnosis happen? I was experiencing seizures and a decline. I was diagnosed in 2013, and I’ve been having to deal with that since then. I have issues speaking since my last surgery at the end of 2019. It’s been quite a challenge, a trial. I still go through these things, even though it’s been difficult. I’ve always had to continue to be strong with my faith. It’s really inspired me to just be happy all the time. That’s what makes me happy – when I think of my Heavenly Father. If anything were to happen, I know that I’m taken care of. I know that He is watching over me and I’m not scared of anything, especially since I’ve been active in the Church. One thing after another happens, but there’s always something positive about it. That’s made a difference in my outlook. It’s strengthened my faith. The day before her first surgery in February 2014, Tandi posted on her blog: I am so blessed to know the Gospel and the importance of renewing our covenants with him. Our Savior died for us so we could repent and return to our Heavenly Father. It is so amazing to me. I feel his love, comfort and protection now. I am not scared. I am at peace and I know through the power of trust and faith in the Lord I will be healed. It won’t be an easy road, but the Lord knows what I can endure and I feel like I can endure this challenge in my life. I am a witness now to his power because I feel so strong and blessed to him in my life. I never felt the Spirit so strong. I have the Lord on my side and I can feel it! This has been an amazing experience for me. My eyes are open and I continue to see so many blessings in my life. The Lord has truly blessed [my family and me]. Especially coming to this point. Satan desires me to be unhappy, but too bad. He failed. I am so happy even at this very moment. I am blessed with a wonderful and loving family. I have unshakable faith and the Lord is in my life. I know when I wake up from the surgery I will work hard and heal fast! Every day I have searched, pondered, and prayed for comfort and strength. I testify that it has worked! I am tremendously comforted that everything will be okay. Even when I spoke with the Doctor about the possible risk of not walking again I didn’t feel scared. I have my trust in the Lord to heal me completely. Of course…It is the will of the Lord. He knows my desires of my heart and I trust him completely. He knows me more than I know myself and I know I am his instrument. Before I go into surgery tomorrow. I wanted to post my testimony. I have a testimony of the Gospel. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I reaffirm that we have a prophet here on this Earth with Apostles. I know that the prophet Joseph Smith restored the gospel for this dispensation. I have pondered and read the Book of Mormon and know of its truth. It is another testament of Jesus Christ. It does not replace the Bible because it is another witness to the Bible. Through this knowledge I trust and love the Lord with all my heart. I don’t know how to describe the feeling I feel right now. I feel so happy and blessed. I feel like I am bursting at the seams. I want to spread my love of the Lord to everyone. He loves us so much and wants us to continue to have him in our lives every day. Sometimes we forget, but he is in our lives all the time! Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ we are saved. I love the Lord so much. I am sure I decided to come down this Earth to go through these challenges. I know my Redeemer lives. I humbly say these things and testify as a witness of his love for his children. I say this in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ. AMEN. I love you all and hope you know that I am not scared. I know I will be healed and I know that this challenge has made me spiritually stronger. If Christ endured pain and suffering far greater than anyone, I know I will get through this. I continue to pray for everyone in my life and through my experiences hope that this will keep the Lord in your lives. What was the result of that surgery? The tumor is glioblastoma stage four tumor – this one was diagnosed in 2013. The survival rate is actually 18 months. After that surgery, I had to go to chemotherapy at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, Maryland. Blog posts, post surgery, February 2014: I know this is a miracle. I know that this has made my faith and believe in God so much stronger. I feel like He led [my family] to Maryland. Who would have thought? I mean, if this happened in Farmington, New Mexico, what would we be doing? I really don’t know, but here everything has fallen into place. I received a surprise at the door today. … I got some awesome flowers and they are so gorgeous. It is so colorful and beautiful. I really am blessed with wonderful people who work with me. I am tremendously blessed with the support I get from people everywhere. I know that when you live every day smiling and being positive it will make other people feel the same way. I want my friends and family to know that even when you are going through the worst day, you have the power to change it around. A simple thought of thinking of others will make you happy. Instead of thinking, “Why me?” think,” How can I make this situation better?” People ask me why I am so positive and happy all the time. Well…the secret is I don’t look at the negative. I look at the positive and the “real secret” is I put the Lord first. I put my trust in him because he knows me more than I know myself. I always get someone asking me if I ever get mad or angry. I sure do because I am not perfect. But I don’t allow myself to bring someone down because of my imperfections. I always love to see and make someone smile. It definitely makes my day. I think some people may get annoyed with it, but oh well…can you blame me…If you don’t want to be around anyone positive you probably be best to stay away from me. Tanderra Bronston Receiving Treatment in 2014 And now, in 2020: Even though I’m still going through these difficult times physically, I’m just able to continue to be positive, especially to my family. I just think about Heavenly Father and how He has blessed me with such a beautiful family who continues to be an example and a strength to me. I think that’s what helps me keep positive. What is your family like? I have four siblings. I’m the oldest, so five altogether. I am married. My husband is not a member of the Church. His father was a pastor for another church. What really connected me to my husband was the faith that he has as well, just with what we go through, like when I went through chemo. He comes to church with me and even though he’s not baptized, he still is a strength to me. He is an example to me and I am an example to him. When we were married, and even before we were dating, he understood and I understood that we both were children of God and that we had that bond with the Savior as well as with each other. That was one thing that really attracted me to him during that time. He’s still an example to me. How long have you been married? 13 years and 2 days. We’ve known each other since high school, for a long time. No children. I went through endometrial cancer in my mid-20s. Going to the temple helped me know that there’s a plan for me, even though I can’t physically in this time have kids. I’ve gone through so much but I have my Heavenly Father in my life. I don’t know what I would be without Him. How has Heavenly Father helped you through this challenge? All the things that I wrote in my blog … I did try to write this year but it’s been difficult for me because I lost the function of my right side.I just feel blessed considering how much time I’ve had already. It’s a miracle that I’m still doing what I’m doing. Right now, I’m doing chemotherapy again – this is my third or fourth time going through chemotherapy, but it’s been in stages throughout my six years. My tumor was stable until it returned last year in December. This time, it actually affected my speech. That’s why it’s hard for me to speak right now but it’s a good exercise to talk to people. It’s difficult but I still continue to strive to be faithful. I keep relying on my faith to move forward because I just know that I will be blessed. I just think of Job and his trials and Joseph Smith. All of our prophets have gone through these trials. They endured pain, so when I think about it, I feel like this is something I can handle. It’s just really helped me and my family – they help me so much. I feel like I’ve always been the strong one – they always said that I really didn’t need a lot of help. So I feel like maybe I need to go through this so that my family learn to help me. I feel like I’m an instrument. I have two siblings, when we talk, it’s like they just love the positivity that I give them at this time. They think, “If she can do it, so can I,” in my circumstances. That’s what I always think about – what Heavenly Father is using me for at this time. I love my ward that helps me during this time. Since we haven’t physically been able to go to church, it’s helped me be even more mindful of trying to be spiritually involved in the home. I have my husband. We actually live with my sister-in-law and my little brother is here with us. Before the pandemic, he was in spring break of his senior year of high school. He’s been able to do the sacrament for us because he has the priesthood. Just continually being able to have that Spirit here has been helpful. I feel like I’ve helped my family in being spiritually blessed.My family is so strong. My father instilled in our growing up that families are forever, and families need to be together, and I really believe that’s so important. Just being a family. Having that foundation, even though we have our ups and downs … everyone goes through their trials and tribulations. Each person has different trials. Family is so important and regardless of what we go through, we continue to carry each other’s burdens. You’ve talked about being happy despite your challenges. What do you do to be happy? What helps me to be happy is just living life, being with my family and my husband. We see each other every day. They make me happy. Growing up, I was always a generally happy person. We moved back near family in Arizona in 2017, and then to Albuquerque the next year. That’s where we are now. I honestly don’t know. I’ve always been a happy person. My husband told me that’s what attracted me to him – my bubbliness. Even people I grew up with – they’ve always told me I was happy through thick and thin. It’s difficult but I’ve tried to find happiness in my circumstances, or at least try to find the blessings. I’m happy I’m still alive and able to work with my left hand and I’m able to walk. I’m happy to be able to just walk around. I just live life daily. I have bad days. I’m not perfect, and when days like that happen, I cry and I simply talk to my Heavenly Father for comfort to get through my difficulties. I feel like everything all works out, especially with my doctors. How is your cancer being managed now? I’m doing chemo. I do it orally so I don’t have to go in. I was supposed to do my fifth cycle and it’s usually five days consecutively, once a month but my platelets are really low. They had to push the date a week or two. I have to be really careful because I’m really bruising right now. I’m not going out, only to the doctor. The pandemic is pretty crazy but I know that the Church was already prepared for this. They probably didn’t know but they had all the materials ready a year prior, like start studying with families. That in itself is amazing to my family. What are your general thoughts to share? All I know is I have a very strong testimony. I know Heavenly Father loves me. I know that I’m a child of God. I have people in my life who have always been an example to me, throughout my life, at church, or in just daily interactions. I didn’t realize how big a support I have. I still speak to my old bosses from years and years back at different jobs. Just to be able to have these experiences and have people say they see a very special spirit in me. It’s because of my faith in Heavenly Father. What people see of me is what I represent of Heavenly Father. I try my best to represent the goodness that He is through me. That’s what I want people to know – that Heavenly Father has blessed me with who I am. With Him, I can get through anything. All these experiences that I have is the strength that represents Him. I have to remember myself as well. Heavenly Father is my one strength that helps me get through this because I represent Him. I wish I could say a lot of things. I have written them before I stopped being able to speak as well. I’m so glad I wrote them down. I still continue to believe with my faith. At A Glance Name: Tanderra Bronston Age: 36 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Marital History: Married Children: None Occupation: Disabled Convert to the Church: Raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Schools Attended: Monument Valley High School, Snow College, San Juan College Languages Spoken At Home: English Favorite Hymn: Master, The Tempest is Raging Interview Produced By: Trina Caudle

While in a stressful life situation, Jocelyn Pedersen was prescribed a category of antianxiety drugs called benzodiazepines. She was severely injured by trying to withdraw too rapidly from the medication and now works to educate patients and doctors about the effects of these drugs and how to heal from the trauma. What was the beginning of your experience with the medication? I hadn’t been sleeping for a few weeks because my daughter was in the hospital with meningitis. She was only a couple of months old and I was nursing her. I wasn’t sure what to do. I was very much into natural medicine and herbs and things like that. But I didn’t know what I could take while nursing a baby so I thought it would be safer to go to my doctor and take something that had been FDA approved and tested. That’s when he gave me Ambien, which I took for less than a week. I could tell that it was affecting my baby even though he said it didn’t get into the breastmilk. I thought, “Well, no, this isn’t okay.” I didn’t want to hurt her, so I cold-turkey-ed off it. That’s when everything went completely crazy and our lives changed forever. Cold turkey after only a week and it went haywire? There’s an effect called kindling. The more you go on and off a benzodiazepine or any kind of a drug like that, the more likely it is that you will have worse reactions in your withdrawal. That was me. It can happen with alcohol and other drugs too. It was actually my third time taking Ambien. There were adverse effects before, but I didn’t connect the effects with the medication, and it wasn’t disabling the first two times. What were your symptoms? I wasn’t sleeping again but it was worse even though I wasn’t getting any sleep before. I couldn’t keep food in. I was in severe pain. I could barely walk. I had difficulty reading or watching TV. This definitely wasn’t normal as I’d been fit before and during my pregnancy. So we went to the doctor – I had every test imaginable done trying to figure out what was wrong with me. Of course, none of the tests came back positive for anything. I was told that I had depression and anxiety. I knew there was something physically wrong with me but when you can’t prove it, and everybody’s telling you, “You can’t just keep lying around all day like you’re doing” … It’s hard to fight back against that. Finally, I gave in. I took the antidepressant that was prescribed and also a prescribed tranquilizer which was, in reality, a stronger version of Ambien. It was Lorazepam. All of a sudden, I got better! The doctors and I didn’t understand that taking more of the same medication stabilized my injury for a period of time. That’s also why every attempt to taper off it was unsuccessful. I kept trying to taper, but every time I would, I just felt awful. I couldn’t do it for more than a day or two. Then I would go back up on my dose. After getting off the antidepressant, I finally decided to get off the tranquilizer no matter what. I made my first cut, and then my second the week after. It was pure torture. I was just writhing in physical and mental agony. I experienced extreme weight loss, hair loss, and the deep-in-your-bones kind of pain like chemo patients describe. What was the mental aspect? It’s like somebody takes a hand mixer to your brain. You can’t follow a train of thought toward its logical conclusion. It’s incredibly difficult to make any sort of logical decision like I’m going to trim my daughter’s fingernails: go to the bathroom, pick up the nail clippers, walk downstairs, sit down and then try to focus your eyes and coordination. To do something like that was just beyond me. That doesn’t even delve into the agony, the terror that’s going on. It affects your fight-or-flight response so you’re in this constant state of terror and panic. Spiritually, it’s like the shield of light that had protected me my whole life was just gone – I was open to every evil thing coming at me and I had no protection from it. Did you, at that time, have anything spiritual that was getting you through? Or were you just kind of living one minute to the next? I was literally just surviving. For twenty minutes, I’m going to do this. Then for the next twenty minutes, I’m going to listen to a meditation. Then for the next twenty minutes, I’m going to go sit outside in the sunshine. In the next twenty minutes, I’m going to do some stretching. I was running a marathon of survival from minute to minute.I would pray and pray and pray in my mind for some relief or comfort. You grow up hearing that God is peace, God is love. But when you can’t feel any of those things, you’re so disconnected from Him. You don’t feel God in the way that you’ve always known. Heavenly Father had to make Himself known to me in other ways. I had scriptures come to my mind when I was thinking about something or quotes from literature that related to my questions or concerns. Even with a lot of memory loss, I still had words come perfectly into my mind. I didn’t recognize it at the time as God communicating with me or comforting me. But that’s what it was. What support did you receive from your family and ward? My husband is a superhero. He’s the one who got online and figured out what was going on with me. He said, “Hey, there are all these people like you who are all saying the same thing and they’re in these support groups.“ He’s the one who helped me determine that I needed to switch medications and taper a lot slower. He was working two jobs and taking care of two little kids and an invalid wife. During that time, I reached out to neighbors, people in my ward, and asked for help watching my daughter for a few hours each day while my son was at school so I could get some rest. I didn’t want to put her in daycare but I knew I couldn’t care for her all day every day. Neighbors took my son to school and members of my ward took turns taking care of my daughter. My Relief Society President was conscientious about providing me with ministering sisters who were compassionate and willing to step up and help me in whatever way I needed. How did you finally get free of the dependence? A support group taught me how to micro-taper over about a year and a half. I learned a lot of things there that I now share with others. Jocelyn Pedersen What type of information-sharing and advocacy work are you involved in now? After learning from people who have researched withdrawal from benzodiazepines, I began to instruct other people on how to do that. Not just withdrawal, but how to advocate with their doctors and navigate relationships with their families. I began making videos that I wish I’d had when going through this, videos that explain things in a way that is understandable to someone dealing with a limited cognitive capacity, but that is also empathetic. They explain what is happening to family and friends who might alienate loved ones going through this because they don’t have a valid explanation for it or think they’re dealing with an addict, which isn’t the case. That’s the content I provide on my BenzoBrains YouTube channel. Through that, I’ve been invited to participate in patient panels and as a guest speaker for continuing education courses for doctors and mental health providers on the effects of benzodiazepines and how to help people going through the withdrawal process. I also got together with some of the leaders in the online community and we co-founded the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition. The main administrators are people who have been injured, and we also have a medical advisory board. One director is an MD (medical doctor) and another is a PA (physician assistant). One of the co-founders is a nurse. It’s geared more toward public outreach and informed consent for patients. The Alliance for Benzodiazepine Best Practices is the nonprofit I’m serving as an advisor to now, is focused on the medical profession and the FDA, reforming physician education, prescribing practices, and publishing research. You’ve published a memoir, Seeds of Hope: A Journey Through Medication and Madness Toward Meaning, about your experience to continue to share your information. How did you find hope in all of this? Hope grows when you’re in a situation that is hopeless. That’s how it works. It has to be ignited in the darkness. It’s looking for those things to hold onto. It was the people who had healed and their stories that I held onto that said, “You can come back from this even though it seems impossible.” It was the kindness of neighbors, the faithfulness and consistency of my husband. It was hoping and looking forward, believing that life could get better, that I wasn’t going to be that way forever. Following hope, I had to find my faith again because of memory loss and forgetting everything that I’d learned about the gospel. Not completely, but a lot of it – not being able to make sense of it, not experiencing God in the way I always knew. I had to question what I really believed. I had to rebuild my testimony slowly bit by bit, and that started after an experience in a testimony meeting one Sunday. I didn’t feel like I knew any of the things that other people were testifying about, but I was prompted to talk about what I did know – profound spiritual experiences I’d had in the past. I walked up with my boils on my face and crazy hair and all in front of the congregation and bore my testimony of spiritual experiences I’d had after bearing my testimony to a friend in high school, going to the temple, and my first baby being stillborn. Things I knew to be true. Even though I didn’t know everything else, I knew those things had happened and I knew they were real, and I couldn’t deny them. That act of faith is what opened the door again to me feeling that connection to God and reading the Book of Mormon. It renewed my testimony. You wrote an essay that was recently published here on MWP, about moving straight into a challenge rather than trying to turn away. That’s an applicable comparison to our global situation right now. Water and the ocean are metaphors I use a lot to help people understand my experience. One day I was reading a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants that had the phrase “workways with the wind and waves” (D&C 123:16). I decided to look up nautical terminology to better understand it and as I was studying, suddenly the idea for this essay just came to me. I learned so much from writing it. I am still learning so much every day. With the knowledge I’m gaining, the scriptures are opening up to me in a way that they couldn’t have before because of the understanding I now have. One thing I’ve learned is that adversity can serve a purpose and it’s really why we’re here. If we run away or try to avoid all these bad things and focus only on the good, which we do out of good intentions, that’s when a lot of harm happens. That’s when bad things are allowed to continue. With everything that’s going on [with the coronavirus pandemic], it’s really becoming clear that when we turn to outside sources and trust these outside sources to help us, instead of turning to The Source that we know, we’re giving our power away. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t go to doctors or listen to experts. But I think we’ve had a lot of things ingrained in us. The world has taught us that you don’t have the power to do anything, you’re helpless, you need us, you’re a victim. As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we know that God can heal us and take care of all things, if we have faith. As members of God’s Church, we shouldn’t be fearful. We should know that we are protected and we are taken care of. Even if life goes differently than we planned, even if things may be scary and may not make sense, we know that God has us in His hands. We can trust in that. We can avoid a lot of the world’s pitfalls if we trust in His promises.When I was teaching a Sunday School lesson on the Isaiah verses in Second Nephi, I said, ”Isaiah’s so easy to understand. I’m going to explain it to you in just three words: there are going to be pitfalls, but I made you some promises and I’m going to keep them, so be patient (faithful). Pitfalls, promises, and patience. There you have it. That’s all of the Isaiah verses right there in a nutshell.” At A Glance Name: Jocelyn Pedersen Age: 42 Location: American Fork, Utah Marital History: Married Children: 3 Occupation: Mom Covert to the Church?: Technically, no. Schools Attended: BYU Provo Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: Be Still My Soul as sung by the Millennial Choirs and Orchestras Website: youtube.com/c/benzobrains Interview Produced By: Trina Caudle

Afrodita Reyes was an early member of the Church in the Dominican Republic. She and her husband have chosen to focus their lives on service to others, helping them to see that they are also children of God. Haz clic aquí para leer la entrevista original en español. My name is Afrodita. I have been married for 31 or 32 years now. I have three children. We have two grandchildren, both are a year and a half old, only a few weeks apart, and we’re expecting our third grandson in November. We are a very close family. Two of my children live here in the capital, and one lives in Puerto Plata, in the north. My husband and I have time to dedicate ourselves to the things that we enjoy! We love being outdoors, hiking, and mountain climbing. It’s not that common here, but whenever we can, we like to get out. Afrodita Reyes How did you learn about the Church? I encountered the Church when I was about 13 years old. The church was very new in our country. I was a young woman and there wasn’t a lot known about it or these blond Americans, some people thought they were CIA. When we started going to church, a lot of our neighbors and friends said, “You don’t know who those people are, you’d better really think about this!” But little by little, the Church here has grown, and they’ve been involved in a lot of service projects in the community. It helps the government, hospitals, and other agencies, so now it’s better-known. What was it in the Church that made you feel you had a place there? If, as you said, a lot of people considered it a North American church, how did you come to feel comfortable? When I was baptized, my whole family was baptized. I came from a home that didn’t function well. As time went on, my family became inactive and restarted some of their bad habits. I went by myself to church for many years. I’m not sure why. It was so far from my house, I had to walk for two hours to get to church. These were not pretty roads and paths! I always brought two pairs of shoes. One pair of tennis shoes, and then, when I got to the chapel, I changed into church shoes. I don’t know why I continued to go alone, my testimony probably wasn’t that strong, but church became a refuge for me. I felt protected. I felt I had good friends and that I had good teachers that I could talk about my problems while they listened to me without judgment. I went three times a week – two times in the evening for activities and also the Sunday meetings. Then I started Seminary. I was in the first group to take Seminary in the country. We stayed after our Sunday meetings. I spent almost the whole day at the church. This helped to strengthen me a little more. I’m not sure when happiness was transformed into faith, but I knew what I wanted for my future. Because I came from a home that didn’t represent the way of living that I wanted, I started to identify what kind of home I wanted to create, and what kind of husband and children I wanted at my side. I had met my husband during this time at church. When he returned from his mission, we got to know each other better through dating and then we got married. We started to build our family in the way we knew we ought to. Not only to our tastes but also after the model of the gospel. So with this in mind, I attended Relief Society. I didn’t know how to cook. I didn’t know how to do anything! But the sisters of the Relief Society taught me. They offered classes to help us learn how to cook, to make desserts, and to sew. I went from not even knowing how to fry an egg to finding I had a real talent with cooking. Now I have a catering business and I own a restaurant. Afrodita Reyes So not only did you find your spiritual gifts, you found temporal gifts and talents in Relief Society! Really, everything I know, everything I’ve learned, everything I am, I have learned from the Church. My life revolves around the Church. What was it like, then, to build this home and family? In reality, it was easier with the help of the gospel but still difficult. Really, you do your part, but the forces of the world are strong. You have to teach your children to treasure up in their hearts the things you teach them. And half of it is you teaching them, and the other half of it is them accepting what you teach. So I tried to show them things, not just tell them things. I remember, when they were little, when we would leave the restaurant, there would always be extra food. I know it’s not a big problem everywhere, but here there are a lot of homeless children and people who walk the streets. I would ask for take-out boxes for the food we didn’t eat and I would have my kids give them to the people we saw in the streets. At first, they didn’t like it. They were embarrassed, but over time they were excited to give out the food. And today, whenever they go out to eat, they always order extra food and take that food with them to share with homeless people and children in the street. We taught them that way, but one way or another, they had to let it change their hearts because they wanted to. What a beautiful lesson that can apply to more than just food. Yes, in fact, that helped them want to serve a mission. My husband and I always said we didn’t want to force them. We decided that if they didn’t want to serve a mission, we weren’t going to be better or worse people. But if they served a mission, they had to do it on their own will, because they were going to have to give it everything. And the beautiful thing was that they didn’t just serve for those two years. Even years after my daughter came home from serving in the Salt Lake City West mission, my daughter still has a missionary spirit. She knows she’s a missionary for life. You can take off your missionary tag, but you have to continue serving and helping others until you die! Reyes Family Speaking of helping others, how did you come to be involved with Latter-day Saint Charities? We have served two missions for the church. The first was for a year and a half, but we had to extend it for five years. It was incredible…it was like the mission of Alma! And we just finished our second mission. My husband is a civil engineer, and so whenever the Church wants to build anything, he helps them for free by donating his time. At the beginning of our first mission, we traveled the country bringing Strengthening the Family and Strengthening Marriage classes to stakes, and they took them to the wards. It was a big job. We traveled every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And then, when the church implemented the programs for addiction, we taught those. That was really difficult. I saw friends of my children and friends of ours…and I didn’t even know they had these problems! It made me more sensitive. How wonderful that the Church has these programs for people looking for help. I saw how people could be reborn. I saw people who arrived with their heads down looking at the floor, and I could see them begin their recovery. Many people told us how much we were blessing the lives of others, but I think we were the ones who were blessed to see how applying the principles of the gospel changed the lives of these people and their families. Why do you think that the principles of the gospel need to be a part of these classes? To be happy, we need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. I saw what Jesus Christ saw in that person who thought everything was over, who thought their marriage was over because they were drowning in bad habits. Those who felt destroyed, like garbage, good for nothing. It’s like a flower, or a plant, that you see as ruined and worthless. But if you take it and put it in the sun and give it water and care, you can see how that plant, which used to be good for nothing, starts to put forth new blossoms and leaves. There comes a moment when it is so glorious you can’t remember it used to be a useless plant. No one can bring that kind of transformation to a human being. For all the academic training you have, you can’t teach that to anyone. That’s something the Lord does working inside out in a person—helping them, supporting them, and nurturing them. And, above all, telling them they are children of our Heavenly Father – in the moment when they realize that they are children of their Heavenly Father, they and their marriages can have a new birth. What have been your favorite projects? One of my favorite projects is in the south of Barahona. There, there is a community of children who are deaf. It’s a place that produces beautiful stones called larimar, and the children’s eyes are the same pretty, light color. They could read lips but had no schooling because they couldn’t hear or speak. We began to build a school for them. They are really special children. I see each one of them as my children! I loved that project. I also remember one time my husband and I were climbing a mountain far from here. We got to a place called Valle de Dios (God’s Valley). It is a beautiful place, but we had to hike for seven hours. On our way back, we got lost. We were scared, but we happened upon a little house and a family that had nine children, the oldest was 13. They were living in the deepest kind of misery, the greatest poverty you can imagine. We stayed to rest a bit while we talked with them. About 20 minutes later we found our path again and we were able to get back. Well, that Christmas, some friends called and said they wanted to help a family and we immediately thought of this family. We were able to bring them food and gifts. We started helping them to improve their house, but then COVID began and we’ll have to complete it later. But this left me an important lesson. Simply put, we got lost so that the Lord could introduce us to this family so that we could find a way to help them, and we could be blessed alongside them. Not all trials and tribulations are telling us that He wants to punish us. If we realize that, a tribulation can become a blessing. We were lost and sad, but when we realized what our purpose was on that trail, and the purpose was what the Lord wanted, well…our mentality changed. That’s a strong message. From one moment to the next, you went from feeling you were on the wrong path to feeling like you were on the right one. Yes. It wasn’t an accident. The Lord wanted us to find them and help them. Afrodita Reyes What does being Dominican and a member of the Church mean to you and your family? We Dominicans are a happy people! We love parties, we love talking a lot and we love talking fast. And for us, the Church is a reason for happiness. It’s being able to share that joy, to share that the gospel is another way to live a life of happiness. My country is a lovely country, a precious island filled with mountains, rivers and beaches, and beautiful and friendly people. I know it’s a difficult moment, but I think the gospel can help. That is to say—we can be better people, and we can share what we have with others and recognize that we are children of God. This is a difficult moment for the whole world, but if we somehow face these difficult moments with a smile, I believe it will be much easier. If we try to get through it complaining, with a bad expression, we’re just going to double the weight we carry. For me, the gospel is everything. I can’t imagine my life without Christ and without knowing my family can be eternal. When a woman knows she’s a daughter of God it’s marvelous. And when you can get your children to see that, especially your daughters, you have marked them forever. Because they will feel special. I know that women are loved by our Heavenly Father. A message that I would like to share with my sisters all around the world is that you are children of God, your life has purpose and direction. We are not left to chance. We have purpose. We just need to search for our individual purposes so we can fulfill them and not get lost in the problems of the day. The problems of the day can mean nothing more than steps to be closer to our goals and to be at the side of our Heavenly Father. At A Glance Name: Afrodita Reyes Age: 49 Location: Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic Occupation: Chef Convert to the Church: Joined the Church at age 14 Language spoken at home: Spanish Favorite hymn: Come, Come Ye Saints Interview produced by: Jenny Willmore and Daniela Mera-Pray

As the mother of eleven children — ten adopted with special needs– Dee Dee Shipley already has her hands full. But add to that 42 years of diabetes and the fact that in 2002 Dee Dee lost her sight in a heart by-pass surgery. Still, Dee Dee sees miracles every day and unfailingly puts her full trust in the Lord. I had diabetes for 42 years. I was diagnosed with it when I was 22 months old. I had injections from the time I was that age. Twelve years ago, when I was 36, I got a kidney/pancreas transplant. The pancreas was defective, so they had to take it out 10 days later. Four years ago I got my second pancreas transplant and I haven’t had diabetes since then. The healing was instantaneous. As soon as they put the pancreas in it started functioning perfectly, so for four years now I’ve been completely cured of diabetes. I’m just doing great. Before I got my last four kids — they came as a sibling group — I asked the Lord, “Where am I going to get the energy to raise another group of kids?” And then my transplant came and there it was. My little daughter had been praying her whole life that my diabetes would go away, and it did. Dee Dee Shipley and Family What motivated you to adopt such a large number of children and why did you chose special-needs children? My husband and I always wanted to have a large family. When I was young, I half-heartedly joked about having twelve kids cause I just thought having twelve kids would be really cool. And my husband grew up in a large family and he liked the idea too. Doctors recommend that diabetes patients like me only have two children. So in 1986 we had our first child, but when she was born she only weighed 1 pound 14 ounces. Three months early. Our miracle baby. We are so fortunate to have her. I went into respiratory heart failure with her, but I survived. I knew I would because I had a blessing that said I would be happy and healthy and I had faith in that. Shortly after that, when our daughter was 2 or 3 I developed kidney disease. At that point, my body started shutting down some of its important faculties and one of them was my ability to have more children. So I wasn’t able to get pregnant again, but it was probably a blessing that I didn’t. My husband and I had wanted more children, but we didn’t think we could go through the process of adopting because of my health. No one was going to give us a brand new little baby with my health record. There was no way we would qualify through standard adoption channels. We heard about a program that placed special-needs teenaged boys in homes. When you take in special needs children, the institutions are much more lenient with their parental qualifications. So we qualified. My husband’s and my goal had always been to be “professional parents” and bring in as many children as the Lord would allow us to. We were given a boy from a residential treatment center. We love children and we really thought we could make a difference in these kids’ lives. About a year and a half later, we got another son from the residential treatment center and he too was 13 when he came to our home. Our two boys had known each other at the center but they weren’t brothers. Both boys required “line of sight” supervision. So I had to be able to see them or hear them at all time. It was kind of like the gestapo! We had to watch them every minute of every day because of the trouble they could get in to. Did you ever question your decision? Yes. Before the boys came to us, we thought love alone would be able to change these kids. We thought would be able to change their internal value system with nurturing and structure. Once we had the boys, we realized it was going to take a lot more. We finally resigned ourselves to the fact that we weren’t going to be able to change them. They were going to have to change themselves. But all of the children we’ve brought into our home we’ve brought with the intention of adopting them. We never wanted them just to be foster children. With these boys… I could tell you stories. They did just about everything you ever could. One of our sons found a huge marijuana plantation in the state forest and he brought some of it home and was trying to sell it at school. The kids at school turned him in and the drug enforcement officials searched our house. That was something else! In that instance, the therapist that was working with us at the time suggested that if he liked “weed” so much, let him weed! We had a huge strawberry patch in our garden behind our house so as a consequence he spent about 25 hours “weeding” in our garden until it was looking perfect. It was an appropriate consequence for home, in addition to his community service. You mentioned a therapist. Does a therapist come with each of these children to help you understand their past and their needs? We’ve had therapists with each of the children. There were psychiatrists involved too. IEPs were in place for the children — Individual Education Plans. Those are curriculum plans that parents, teachers, school psychologists all work together to put in place for that particular child. We had a really tough time with the boys. I remember at one point sitting in a Relief Society meeting and the teacher was saying, “You’ve always got to look for the good in situations. There’s always a bit of good.” That was such a low point in my life. I thought, “There is nothing good about this.” My husband and I were really heartbroken. Actually, we have wonderful relationships with the boys today. It’s a happy ending. What are they doing today? Our oldest is 28 and currently working. He lives close by. We see him for all of our family gathering and holidays. He loves coming over. Our second son finished a program through Job Corps [a free government education and training program]. He got a certificate to be a welder and has regular jobs doing that. He found a wonderful gal and they’re getting married next month at our local ward’s chapel! We tried to adopt him three times, and we finally succeeded last January. He was 24 when he became an official part of our family. Why is it important for you to adopt these children, even at age 24? They just need to be part of a family. They need someone who will love them no matter what. Unconditional love. Christ-like love. Someone who will be there for them. They have no one else to go to bat for them. They’ve learned not to trust adults. It takes special needs children a long time to learn that they can rely on other people. I feel like it makes a difference for them to know they legally belong to somebody. How has the Spirit guided you in making decisions about these children? You know, when our first son came to us, I was really wondering, praying, questioning if should I bring him into my home. What will this do for us as a family? Inspiration came to me in the form of a scripture line from a hymn: “With God, nothing is impossible”. With my second son, the Spirit encouraged me to let him follow God’s plan for him. All he wanted to do was find his birth family, and he did. And then he found out that our family wasn’t so bad! There was stability here and we followed the commandments and we had Family Home Evening and scripture study and prayers. And that was a comfort to him. What affect did this all have on your daughter? Oh, poor girl! She was the “good child”. Actually, the perfect child. She compensated for all the time and effort we put into the others. Even though she’s a really righteous girl it’s hard: “Why do I always have to the one setting an example?” It really has been an emotional journey. After our older boys left home, I was able to let the Spirit talk to me and say, “Laugh and dance and be silly and do whatever you want to.” A sense of peace and happiness came over us after years of a stressful situation. You mentioned your oldest son is now 28 and living on his own. Who is at home still? We have the 10 other children still at home. We have children between 28 and 2. Every one of our children came with a miracle. About three years after the boys left home, my husband said, “I think it’s time that we get more children.” And I thought, “Oh man. I just can’t do it. I can’t bring in any more children.” But I knew in my heart that I really should do this. It was shortly after that that we got a call about three little girls who were available. As my husband told me about them, the Spirit hit me and I started crying, saying, “I can’t do this. I can’t do this again.” And in the next second, “I CAN do this! I can!” I was talking to the adoption worker about them and I mentioned that our religion is very important to us. And she said, “That’s interesting. The girls’ religion is very important to them too. In fact, I think they were recently baptized Mormon.” The missionaries had knocked on the door of their foster mother’s house and they learned about the gospel there. They got baptized and lived there for about 18 months, going to church and being Mormons! And we didn’t even find them through the Church, we found them through Wisconsin Lutheran Social Services. That was a miracle. Dee Dee Shipley For our next little girl, my husband had a dream and in it, he saw a little girl who was visually impaired. He dreamed we were all in our garden with her, working on the plants side by side. He told me about his dream and said, “I think we need to find that little girl. I think she’s out there for us.” So we prayed about it and I called our adoption worker and said, “I know this is going to sound funny, but we’re looking for a little girl who’s visually impaired between 5 and 10 years old with light colored hair.” The lady said, “I’ve worked here 14 years and we’ve never had a visually impaired child come through.” Fourteen months later, here comes our little girl! From the time we got the phone call from our adoption worker we knew she was our “dream girl”. We’d never seen a picture of her but when my husband went to meet her, she took off her glasses and he looked into her eyes and he said, “Yep, that’s my little dream girl.” So that’s how she came to us. With our last group of children, we received a voice mail from our adoption worker who said she had three children, ages 6, 5, and 4 months, who needed a home. As I listened to the message, the Spirit confirmed to me that they were to be our children. After 20 years of hoping and praying, we never thought we’d have another baby. But this one dropped into our laps. They’re wonderful — they have a lot of problems! — but they’re great kids. They have the same mother but different fathers. The older two have been baptized, the baby is still too young. She’s three now. And about a year after adopting them, we found out that their mom was pregnant again and we got another newborn baby — the girls’ little brother. And he’s 2 now. What role has your husband played in raising these children? Our goal has always been to be professional parents, so most of the time he works out of our home. He is so supportive and so wonderful and he’s so good with teenagers. I’m much better with little children. He just is so logical and explains things so well and comes up with great examples and really is in tune with our teenagers. He’s been an inspiration to me. In the middle of this, in 2002, you lost your eye sight. How did that happen? Well, I’ll tell you, of course it was a surprise. Everyone was shocked by it and it rarely happens. I had heart by-pass surgery and during the operation, I had a double optic nerve stroke. But before I woke up from my surgery, I had a dream. In my dream, my husband came to me and told me to not worry, everything was going to be fine and I would to be able to see. And that’s when I woke up from the heart by-pass surgery. I felt my eyes, and thought, “Did they put bandages on them? What’s going on here?” And then I remembered my dream and my husband telling me everything will be okay. I still had an intubation tube in my mouth and I couldn’t tell them right then that I’d lost my sight. Eventually when the tube came out and I told them what I was experiencing they rushed me around and found out I had a optic nerve stroke. In the subsequent blessings that I’ve had and through that dream, I know that I’m going to get my sight back someday. I’ve been promised that. What changed in your home after this happened? It took me about a year to recover from my heart surgery. The doctors had told me that’s what it would take and I had laughed. I said, “A year? That’s impossible.” I had a wound in my leg where they had taken out the veins and it took nine months for that thing to heal. I had my leg propped up to control the swelling. At first I did a lot of sitting but I was able to talk with my children and hug them and hold them and hear them. Initially, I had thought it would be better to lose my hearing rather than my sight, but after I lost my sight I knew it was better to be able to still hear my children. I could hear them say, “Mom, I love you.” So the women of the Relief Society came to the rescue, of course. They helped my children with laundry and they made meals and cleaned my house and put my children down for naps and let me rest so I could regain my strength. They were a blessing and a miracle. Where do you get the strength and the love you feel for all eleven of these children? It’s from the gospel. My family was Catholic and I happened to be 8 years old when my family was baptized into the Church. That first Sunday after I was baptized, I bore my testimony and I started crying. And I thought, “Why am I crying?” I thought it was so odd. But even at that time, I felt so strong about the Gospel that I knew it was true. Ever since that time I have never doubted or waivered in my trust of the Lord. Sometimes I don’t always submit my will to Him, but now that I am as old as I am, I try to do that all the time because He has much better plans for me than I would have for myself. His road is much smoother and easier than taking the rocky road and doing things the hard way. Has your blindness brought your children closer to the Lord? I think it has. They’ve learned a lot about compassion. There’s a lot more tenderness and love in our home because of it. I have some wonderful teenaged daughters. They help with our toddlers and they do our laundry. There are usually about 14 loads a week. We have double washers, double dryers. Two dishwashers. We had them put into this wonderful house that the Lord brought into our pathway and saved for us… That’s another story! I’ve had so many miracles in my life I can’t even count them. I’m grateful to be a part of this gospel and a member of this Church and be able to have a testimony of the Savior and His love for us. If we follow Him, we’ll have a great life. At A Glance Name: Dee Dee Shipley Location: North Prairie, WI Age: 48 Marital status: Married 25 years Children: Eleven (ages 29, 26, 23, 18, 15, 11, 10, 10, 9, 3, and 2) Occupation: Mother Schools Attended: Milwaukee Area Tech College Languages Spoken at Home: English Convert to Church: September, 1969 Interview by Neylan McBaine.

Alyson Deussen is the mother of a gay son, Stockton, who came out at age 13 and died by suicide in 2016 at age 17. Alyson serves her community by supporting LGBT teens and young adults coming out, who may be estranged from their family, as well as focusing on suicide prevention. She and her husband created a scholarship fund to memorialize their son and support LGBT young adults in their educations. They are also the founders of Peculiar, a nonprofit organization focused on empowering families to show unconditional love to their LGBT children, and empowering LGBT youth and young adults to live authentically. Could you please start by sharing your experience with your son’s sexual orientation? My son Stockton came out as gay at age 13 and in seventh grade. He wrote a letter to his sister who then shared it with us. We were not prepared with any kind of a decent response; we were probably not great with our reaction. In a lot of ways, we just weren’t fully believing that it was really true. It sounds like forever ago, in 2012, but there really weren’t a lot of resources then. And certainly, there wasn’t as much discussion as there is now. We didn’t know many young kids who were coming out. So it seemed a little bit fresh, and maybe he was just young and a little confused at the time. Alyson and Stockton He was going into the teenage phase and he was in counseling at that time. We were told even by the therapist, “It’s a phase, kids don’t know that they’re gay.” We just kind of played it off. We weren’t going to say that he wasn’t, but we weren’t going to jump on board and say he was. I started to look into things and see what I could find. There was very little. Mormons Building Bridges was the group I found. I found another mom talking about her teenage son who had come out. I connected with her through Facebook and she’s the one who said, “You really ought to try Affirmation.” I think he was 14, about a year after he had come out, when we went to the Affirmation conference in Salt Lake City. We met maybe six other kids, teenagers, participating in the youth track. They were kids from all over the U.S. who had come with their parents, trying to find and get support. That was the first connector we had with the LDS LGBT space, with other LDS families that had kids who were LGBT, whether adult kids, young adults, or teenagers. What was the benefit of the support groups? How did this change things for Stockton and your family? The thing that was really great about Affirmation was he finally found his people – people who understood him. When we went to church, it felt a little foreign to him. But when he was among the parents of other LGBT people, it was what I envision a ward could be like – all the parents were talking to the young adults and the kids, asking them about their interests. That wasn’t necessarily the experience we had in our own ward and neighborhood. Being LGBT was a newer topic and our church culture made it uncomfortable to talk about. Back then, we made a lot of assumptions that if someone identified as gay, they were maybe “acting on it,” and those things don’t come together well in a church environment. There were a lot of misunderstandings and assumptions based on things that we just didn’t know. For him, there was a big monkey on his back in a lot of ways, even though he had support from us, support from his siblings, and he had these new friends. But they didn’t live next door, or the next city over. They lived one or two states away, so those connections were not what any teenager looks for and wants. Parents are good but friends are better. We were in a conservative area so it made things a little difficult. I was definitely operating under a fear mentality. I immediately started to play things out in my head, which wasn’t good. “What am I going to do when he turns 16, what if he wants to date boys? What are we going to do? What if he wants to marry a boy, and be with a boy?” You heard stories about other family members not wanting them around them or their kids, or families not allowing their partner to be in family pictures. I started to play all those scenarios out in my head, and it overwhelmed me. I couldn’t control any of them but I was super fearful of what that would look like. When I did get to those things, when he told me he kissed a boy for the first time – the way he was so excited and happy about it, the fears went away because I saw that it was so real. It was like any other teenager would be, having their first kiss. I had seen the sadness and loneliness that he’d felt, and he got a light when he was with other people who understood him. Alyson's Family I hope that everyone’s reaction to a teen or young adult coming out is a lot different now than it would have been ten years ago. I hate to even say this, but sometimes I look at parents upset about a child coming out and think, “You guys, everything is going to be okay. Enjoy what you have and don’t get too worked up.” I was, to some degree, worked up over things I probably shouldn’t have been. Now in hindsight, I think, “Why did I let that get in the way?” It’s a silly example, and I’ll probably die when I say it, but we were freaked out when Stockton started smoking pot. Freaked out. I was dying. I know now he was probably doing that as a way to cope with things, which, granted, is not the healthiest thing, and I’ll stand by that. However, if I had to go back, I’d probably be better at not overreacting. It scared me to death. You’re going to laugh – Stockton and I had one of the biggest fights over buying a pair of red jeans. I was adamant that he was not going to have those red jeans. I look back now and go, “What were you thinking?” Red jeans. It was me. It was all me. That was a little extreme. If you were a ministering sister and had someone come to you and say, “My kid just came out as gay, what do I do?” What would you tell them? I used to say, by my own admission, if my son had cancer, I would easily sit down with my ministering sisters and say, “I need help, I’m struggling.” But there was no way I was going to say, “My son just came out as gay and I don’t know what I’m doing or how to do this.” I was mortified about what everybody else thought. That’s my bad. I know now I wouldn’t be that way. But seven years ago, I was certainly in that space. It wasn’t because I didn’t know LGBT people – I did, and I had great relationships. But that dynamic changes when it’s now in your home. If I had someone ask that question, the very first thing I would say is, “Tell them you love them and thank them for trusting you with such personal information. Then ask them if they’re suicidal, or have been suicidal.” The next thing is to ask their child to tell them more. Give them that space to share what they’re feeling, ask what they need to be supported, what that looks like. What resources can we find together to help you be healthy and support you? Those would be the very first things I would say. I find that a lot of parents who think that their kids haven’t been suicidal are shocked when they ask that question, that their kids have said that that’s been on their radar. I don’t have a real statistic, but I would be willing to say that over 75% of the kids I talk to have been in that place one time or another. That’s tough. It’s really tough, and I think parents are really surprised, because even when their kids are coming out – when it’s “easy” for them to come out and the parents react positively – the kid seems to be doing well, having come out. But I think that they’ve found that there have been some dark moments or ongoing moments where internally they are still battling that demon, that struggle of how it’s going to fit. One of the things that was very triggering for Stockton was the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet. When he turned 12, it said something to the effect of, “Same-sex attraction, if you’re experiencing it, it’s a sin and you need to talk to your Bishop.” To him, it was like, “What have I done that’s sinful?” Immediately, he felt labeled, like he had done something wrong when in reality it was purely just the way he was made but hadn’t done anything. I’ve heard multiple times that people think they’re somehow condoning behaviors just by associating with LGBT people. “How can I allow it around me and be accepting of it?” Truth be told, from my perspective – if we knew a lot of what people were doing, not just LGBT kids, it would be that same scenario. You just don’t see it. I don’t know how people have time for that, personally. It takes a lot of brain space. And maybe because I’ve lost a lot of brain cells that I just don’t have room. I use the motto: I’d rather be excluded for the people I include, as opposed to excluding those and be included. That’s my motto. I’d rather be inclusive. I don’t think that anyone else’s choices – that’s what free agency is all about – are going to reflect any degree on my love and support for them. Stockton passed away in June 2016. How did you choose an education scholarship as the way to memorialize him? Alyson with Her Husband and Stockton It came about organically. We started with Christmas. Because I had money set aside for Stockton, so we found LGBT kids that we thought might need an extra Christmas boost that year. I was on the board of the Homeless Youth Shelter here in Utah – at that time, 50% of homeless youth in Utah (we had about 5000 homeless youth in the state) were LGBT and LDS. They were homeless for multiple reasons – some because their parents had rejected them, some left because it was a hostile environment, or they were kicked out. We found that was a great way to honor Stockton during a very difficult holiday. When Stockton passed, he had been working and had saved up some money. We felt it was important to donate his money to something that was meaningful to him. Because I knew of a lot of youth that were in crisis at Christmas, I felt like I had more to give. What I would have done for Stockton in a lot of ways. So it came naturally for us. We would have done that for Stockton if he had been here. It kept evolving. When Stockton would have been 18, it was natural that we would have been helping him with college. I also wanted his two sisters to have a way to carry on his legacy that would be meaningful to them. It could help them work through their grief and carry on that memory. It was also a round-about way for them to gain a bit more perspective and compassion for others. We have a lot of stories from the scholarship recipients. One young man named Jackson shared that the weekend of Stockton’s funeral, he had plans to take his own life. In his scholarship application, he shared that. I just got a postcard from Jackson today in California – he’s at Berkeley, and said, “I couldn’t have done this without that scholarship.” It’s given my kids the opportunity to see real people and the impact that Stockton has had. I feel like there’s a lot of opportunity for me and my kids to be outside ourselves. Not just in the LGBT space, but in a lot of scenarios. I felt that would give them some purpose and things that they can do to help make change. How do you choose the recipients? Stockton’s sisters choose, for the most part. There’s an application process to answer a few questions and share their goals. It asks how they are going to “Stand for Stockton” among their peers and in their sphere of influence – what does that look like to them. Because it is so new, I think the first year, we had only four applicants. This year, we had thirty. I do have one donor who has contributed a significant amount of money that asked to review some of the applicants. I know a lot of these kids but not all of them, so I want it to be unbiased. Can you please introduce Peculiar? My husband and I started a nonprofit called Peculiar – it’s an organization that is working with Harvard Medical School to develop an educational platform through better support and education to faith leaders, therapists, educators, and families to improve engagement with, and love and support for LGBT youth and the community. The research and education is truly a prevention model that will create a better beginning so outcomes like depression and suicide become significantly reduced. The mission and vision statement is “To inspire and empower parents and families to unconditionally love and embrace their LGBTQ+ children. We see a world where there is no prejudice or bias against the LGBTQ+ community and all of our precious youth are treated with respect, dignity, and equality.” We currently have a program called Allies and Appetizers, where we invite people to gather and hear a speaker share their personal and vulnerable story. Our desire to help people understand the power of a story and help people understand the value and benefit of being an ally. How have you maintained your relationship with the Church through all of these experiences? I haven’t very well. Up until Covid, my husband and I traveled quite a bit. In a lot of ways, I didn’t have to go because we were out of town. I had been struggling. Shortly after Stockton died, we moved into a new ward. It was really hard to go to church because we had to repeat everything we were going through. Ultimately, we shared with our new leaders and neighbors about the situation. The ward is awesome, and it’s been very refreshing. In our previous area, the stake president was adamant that we weren’t going to anything outside the books. When I tried to get him to do some support for parents with LGBT kids: nope. When I tried to get him to talk about it, and educate the young men and young women leaders: no, we’re not going to do that. It was all very pushed back. As an entire church, we still don’t support our LGBT kids in a way that’s inclusive, in my perspective. If I were asked, I would tell a parent to take their child to an affirming church where they can realize that their relationship with the Savior is their relationship with the Savior. If you can do that while staying in the LDS faith, more power to you, but does your kid really feel that? My son related God to an LDS God – if these people don’t love me, then God must not love me. He did not have that bigger picture. My son got to a point where he wanted no religion – he didn’t want any spirituality. Religion can be what it is, but even spirituality – he wanted nothing to do with it. Shame on me, because I honestly put all of my eggs in my church basket and I shouldn’t have. Maybe it was lazy, but I did okay with my first two. They learned all the right things in church and it worked out pretty darn good, right? I was thinking, “Well, I’ll just keep all my eggs in that basket.” But really, as I was putting them in, other people were taking them out and dropping them, as it went with my son. That’s a really interesting analogy – it’s a good mental picture. I was in there saying, “Hey guys, I know this is awkward. I’ll sit down with you and let’s talk to the young men leaders. You can ask me any questions on how to handle this.” I asked the bishop to ask Stockton to play his guitar in sacrament meeting to keep him involved. He was a swimmer – could he teach the young men how to do flip turns for Young Men one night? I was trying to do all these things to help keep my son active, and I felt like all they were doing was throwing it out the back door. A lot of it was fear-based, but there was no desire to sit down and talk about what it could look like to keep Stockton in the Church. I can see how that would make things difficult to maintain a relationship with the Church. It’s been tough. Our current bishopric has received Affirmation information and they’ve been very responsive. We have a very young ward, young bishopric, a lot of transplants working in Salt Lake. It’s a totally different vibe when talking about LGBT. There have been some issues in Relief Society when it’s been brought up negatively, but the leaders have been nothing but awesome. I’ve been more active since Covid than I’d been in a while. We do a Sunday School every week online with LGBT Young Adults. We do a spiritual gathering with them every other week, now in person with masks. We used to do a dinner once a month but not right now because of Covid. I suggested, “I’ll come back to church if you call me to be a missionary in the homeless shelter in Salt Lake. I’ll go there on Sundays.” I feel like in a lot of ways, it’s constraining – the way I want to live and the way things actually are. It’s very superficial for me. It’s not very deep. Some of that can be from losing Stockton. I feel that in a lot of relationships too, even in my family. How did you get involved with the homeless work? Because of the LGBT piece of it. There were so many LGBT kids being kicked out, that I connected in. I felt strongly that these kids needed to be supported. I wanted to be part of that change and part of that conversation about how that was going to look. That statistic has dropped significantly. You won’t see 50% anymore. The last time I asked, it was below 30%. There are changes being made. People are seeing that rejection is not the way to handle this. Since your work has been primarily with youth and young adults, can you share some thoughts specifically for them? If a friend comes out to them, the best thing anyone can say is, “How can I support you? What does that look like?” I would ask them to check on their emotional and mental wellbeing. That’s key. We talk about “being your brother’s keeper” but our climate is so volatile that so many people are masking what they truly are experiencing. That can be LGBT or others. I think we need to get good at this. It’s a key to suicide prevention – being more open and honest and vocal about where we’re at. You don’t have to say, “Are you thinking of suicide?” When I’m with LGBT youth or young adults, I have them give me a scale of one to ten, ten being it’s a really bad day and they’re thinking things aren’t looking so good. I just can say, “What number are you today?” I can get a barometer. “Tell me more about that – you’re a 5 today, what does that look like for you?” So then I have an idea. Maybe a 5 is a really good day for them. “What made it a good day?” And they can tell you. Or, “What made it awful?” We have a friend, whenever we have dinner with him, he says, “What’s your high and low today?” We’re so hooked on the highs – “What was good about today? Give me all your positives.” Right? Especially with younger kids and even young adults. We always want them to think positively. But we need to give them permission to just say, “Ya know, today was kind of a crummy day.” And they also need to hear us say when we have a crummy day. It normalizes that. Not every day is rainbows and unicorns. Life can be hard. My husband came in today and had been up all night – it’s one of his grief moments and he’s been a mess all day. There’s not a thing I can do, but he’ll say it. We’re four years into this, and some days, Stockton’s passing will hit you like it was yesterday. And you have to just acknowledge it, and we have to get good at helping our kids acknowledge those things too. We push at these kids when they post, “Oh, it’s an awful, terrible day.” Part of you wants to be empathetic and part of you thinks, “Yep, those days come.” That’s kind of the sadness of social media, that we don’t talk about the hard things so people think they’re the only one experiencing something. Life rollercoasters do come, so what tools are you going to put in your toolbox to help you when they show up. And young adults who are LGBT? My advice to them always is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, especially if they’ve grown up in the Church. There are very good and valuable lessons that they’ve learned that will always be good and valuable. Find a spirituality that works for them, that is healthy, that brings them connection and joy, and affirms to them that they are loved A lot of kids do not believe and are agnostic, so I encourage them to find a higher power or something that is a connector for them. Good is still really good, whether you’re in the LDS faith, or any other faith, or not going to church anywhere at all. There’s still goodness in the things that we learned growing up, and there’s goodness in things we can continue to do to make a connection with other people and with our Creator. You don’t have to have all the answers. At A Glance Name: Alyson Paul Deussen Age: 52 Location: North Salt Lake, Utah Marital History: Married Children: 3 Occupation: Retired Operations/Risk Management Director, non-profit fundraising (volunteer) Education: BS, Health Care Admin & Gerontology Language Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: Because I Have Been Given Much Website: thepeculiar.org & standingforstockton.com Interview Produced By: Trina Caudle

Following a spiritual prompting that came from the clear blue sky, Emily Farmer walked into a senior care facility in her neighborhood to play the piano. She became instant friends with one of the residents, a 99-year-old man called Mac, and discovered he played the harmonica. They played music together for the residents and were invited to events, and eventually recorded some songs for an album. Emily and Mac also supported each other through personal health challenges until Mac passed away in January 2020 at age 103. How did you meet Mac at the beginning? I’ve always loved fitness, and I was outside running one day and I had music playing in my ear. I heard this really loud voice tell me, “Go in and ask if you can play the piano.” What? I turned my head while I was still running, and I saw an assisted living center. I’d never even noticed that place before. I’ve played the piano my entire life and I’ve performed for so many different events and things, so when I heard that voice telling me to play the piano, it wasn’t anything out of the normal for me. I thought, “Oh, okay. I’ll go in tomorrow or something.”As I started running again, the voice said, “Go in now and play the piano.” Okay. So I went in the care center and asked the front desk if I could play the piano sometime, and they said, “Why not right now?” I was still in my running clothes, but I sat at the piano bench and just started playing. This sweet gentleman walks in and comes over to me, “Hey, when does the show start?” I said, “What show? I’m just here to play.” I didn’t even know what I was doing there. He sat down with me and we just started talking and we were instant friends.He was so hilarious and coherent for his age, so I asked how old he was. “Ninety-nine!” I was shocked because I’d never met someone that age so I asked when he turned 100. He blew it off – “Eh, in six months. I don’t even care.” But no way. So many people in this world can’t say they lived to be 100 years old. So I told him I was going to keep him alive by coming and playing the piano for him every week, until he was 100. He laughed but he was skeptical, so I made him a deal – which is funny because I’m not really someone who makes deals with people – so I made a deal with him and that’s what started it all. Emily and Mac I started going once a week and playing the piano for Mac and the other residents, and eventually, I ended up going every day. I’d be out on my run and I’d stop in and see him, chat with him, and then go back home. I learned that he played the harmonica, so we would play music together for the other residents. We’d gather other residents from their rooms, and we’d have ten to twenty residents depending on what they were doing with their day. They’d just sit and listen to us play music for them. How long ago was that? It was about five years ago that I started playing for Mac, then six months after I met him, he turned 100. I was so amazed that we made it! By that point, quite a few people had started asking us to play for events. My favorite was that we were asked to play at the funeral for one of the residents who would listen to us. That was really fun. Mac and I decided that our purpose was to bring people joy and make them happy with our music. So we loved sharing our music with people. What were the health challenges that you supported each other through? Shortly after I met Mac, I was diagnosed with Lyme disease. A lot of people don’t even know they have it and it doesn’t affect them, but for whatever reason, it did to me. It is wild stuff. It affected my nervous system so badly that it was hard for me every day to get out of bed. I couldn’t feel my hands or feet. But I remembered my promise to Mac that I would keep him going to his 100th birthday. I pulled myself out of bed, it was all I could do to go and see him. I’d get him from his room and play the piano for him. He taught me so much during that time as I was sitting at the piano. Sometimes I could not feel my hands to play the songs so I’d just sit there. He was so sweet and patient, and just kept talking to me. A lot of people didn’t know that Mac was blind. He taught me a lot, through that trial of having Lyme disease, to always be happy no matter what you’re going through. He never let being blind stop him. He never got into “woe is me.”I didn’t realize this lesson would be a huge piece for me a few years later, when I got multiple traumatic brain injuries in a short amount of time. When I got those, they took me out. My life felt like it had come to an end. I hit rock bottom. I felt like I was at the bottom of the ocean, just in the dark, cold, lonely because of the amount of extreme pain I experienced, the emotional side effects. It messed up my brain really bad. I struggled with anxiety and depression, suicidal thoughts; and experienced memory loss, hearing loss, and the loss of a degree of my vision for a time. Mac taught me so much from his experience of being blind that we can be happy, no matter what we’re going through. And then I had to learn to apply that principle to my daily life to keep going. What caused the brain injuries? I was in two different car wrecks within six months – people hit me on the freeway. They completely took me out. I was nonfunctioning. I had to move in with my parents because I couldn’t take care of myself. I didn’t know what was going on. I wasn’t able to drive anymore. I couldn’t work, I couldn’t even go to the grocery store. I didn’t know where I was or what was going on. The emotional part, on top of the physical injuries, added a whole other part to the situation. It was unbelievable. I even lost my memory of how to play the piano, and that’s when I thought, “What in the world, my life is over. What is the purpose of this?” That was my faith crisis – that’s when I really came to: if God truly loves me, why did He take my piano, my love of piano, how could He take that from me? That’s when I had to really learn that if I was ever healed or not at all, could I still trust God? Emily Farmer Those are some pretty challenging things – Lyme disease, and two car accidents with brain injuries. Were you having a faith struggle before the car accidents, or is that what caused it? No, I had never struggled with a faith crisis before the car accidents. After the car accidents, I had to move home because I couldn’t take care of myself. I couldn’t play the piano anymore, and that’s when I thought, “If God truly loves me, why did He allow this to happen?”I never thought I would ever go through that kind of thing in my life. I’ve always been a member of the Church, always had a strong testimony. In that experience, I struggled a lot – I wondered where God was through this situation. I felt like I’d been left, and did He really care about me. I was mad at God – how can I trust Him if He allowed this thing to happen that’s so bad. At one point, my memory was gone – I couldn’t even remember how to play the piano. It was so hard because I lost the songs that Mac and I had been playing for the residents, the piano had been my whole life. To sit down at a piano and not know how to play was just so hard for me. I struggled for months with trusting God, until we were able to find a doctor that was able to figure things out. I had to learn to truly trust God again and pray to Him and honor Him and accept that I may never be the same person that I was before those accidents. It’s so interesting in our lives that we have to trust God and trust that no matter the situation, He has a purpose in all this. And that’s when my brain was able to get some healing and the miracles started to come. A lot of people have a faith crisis relating to the Church itself, but it sounds like yours was specifically about your relationship with God.It was totally my relationship with God. If He loved me, why did He allow two car wrecks to happen and then I would lose my memory and I couldn’t even do something that I loved. That was at the time we didn’t know if I’d recover at all, if I’d be able to function independently again. Would I be able to play the piano again or live on my own again and take care of myself. I ended up going through nine doctors before we found the one I call the miracle doctor who helped my brain recover and my memory of the piano music came back. During the time of trying to find medical help, that was a lot of my faith crisis – where are you, God; I need you; have you forgotten about me; do I even matter anymore; do I even have a purpose here; why am I still here today?I learned a lot through that. If you are here, right now, today, there is a reason. God has a purpose for you. Not only for me, but for everyone. If you are here, there is a reason for it. How did you get from “Where are you, God?” to “There is a purpose”? What was that middle part like? Mac actually passed away during that time, at age 103. I remember feeling so lost after he passed because he really had become one of my best friends – someone I would talk to every day on the phone or I’d go visit him. But I remembered that Mac and I made this promise that we were going to bring people joy and make them happy through our music. I was able to be with Mac the day that he passed away – it was a really special experience. The last thing that Mac said to me was, “Remember our purpose. Remember the promise we’ve made.”It was a few months later, when I’d gone through the depression, like I was at the bottom of the ocean – it was so lonely and dark and cold, my life’s over, there’s no purpose here. That’s when I was reminded – remember your purpose and your promise. Mac always said, “If you have a pulse, you have a purpose.” That’s what helped pull me out of it and kept me going. I gotta keep doing this, I gotta do this for Mac, I gotta keep the promise. It sounds like you are keeping that promise. Yeah, in a way that I never thought would happen. A few years back, Mac and I had gone to recording studio to play the songs we did together, just to have as a keepsake of him and me because it was so special. I also recorded some of my own songs. I always have music playing in my head, all the time. I can just sit down at a piano and play a made-up song, all the time. Emily Farmer I knew from the time I was a teenager that my music was a gift that touched people, so making an album was something I always wanted to do. I didn’t know the extent that it would happen or how it would turn out, but there’s a particular song that came to me when I was playing for an event one time, and I just knew that arrangement needed to be shared with the world in a certain way. I wasn’t sure how or what it would be, and life went on. When I was going through that moment of healing with my brain injuries, I remembered I still had all those songs. That’s when it all came together – I thought, I’ve gotta keep my promise to Mac to share our music. Even though he’s not here, he still would want me to do it. That’s how the album came together. The songs that he and I recorded are on there, and also songs that are my arrangements. When my memory finally came back with the piano, that’s when I really started working on my album. It’s called Journey and was released in April 2020. That’s right when the pandemic started. How did an album release happen with those limitations? You have to plan ahead when doing albums – we planned to release it in April and then the world was shut down during the pandemic. No one had any idea that was going to happen. That was quite a shock. But I ended up having the coolest experience, really special. When we were in the quarantine lockdown, I was able to go to so many people’s doorsteps and give them one. I ended up giving away more free ones than I ever sold, and it meant so much more to me. I felt like I was fulfilling that promise that I made to Mac, to see people smile during the pandemic because I was able to give them this album. I was able to take it to some of the friends that Mac and I had made at the care center, dropping it at the front desk. Just seeing people’s face light up – it was incredible, a really special experience that I’ll always remember.2020’s just been a really different year for everyone. So it’s been really cool to see how this album has been sunshine for the world. Just to see the lives that it’s touched and the messages that I get – people say it’s brought a lot of peace to their lives, it’s brought a lot of joy, especially at this time. There’s a song on the album called Embrace Your Journey – I just sat down at the piano and it just kind of came out. I really feel like it’s been the story of the album and Mac’s and my lives – embrace your journey, whatever it is. Mac was blind and I struggled with health challenges, brain injuries – yet we’re supposed to embrace it. The journey you’re on is the one God wants you to be on. Trust Him. There’s a purpose for you. The lessons that we learn from our challenges will help us to help others. We can be that light that we need to be for the world. I like that phrase. How do you feel that you have embraced your journey now that you’re on the other side of these health challenges?From embracing it, I’ve definitely learned to just accept the journey you’re on is the one God wants you to be on. Whether the healing comes or not, or the miracles and answers come now or a year from now, or if they don’t come at all in this life, God is with you. Mac always said to me, “If you have a pulse, you have a purpose.” Embrace every day and you are not alone. Emily Farmer Is there anything else you want to share? We have the choice about a relationship with God. Choose to see God every day in your life. Look for those unexpected blessings. Look for those you can serve – we rise by serving others. For me, for my healing, it often does not come quickly. But when you look for the little things in your every-day life, or when you find someone you can serve, you can see Him in there and you can see those unexpected blessings. What’s an unexpected blessing that you’ve seen recently? I was able to share my music yesterday with someone who’s having a faith crisis experience in their life and going through a really intense health trial as well. It was so cool to be able to see that from my experiences, I was able to help someone. I’m able to have empathy for others in a way that I never would have before. And to be what Mac taught me – we can be happy no matter what, it’s okay, we can get through this no matter the outcome. So it was really a unique thing to be able to experience that with someone and help them, after I was helped in so many different ways by Mac. Now I’ve been able to be there for someone I didn’t even know, to share my talents and my gifts and help brighten their day. At A Glance Name: Emily Farmer Age: 29 Location: Utah Martial History: Single Occupation: Musician and public speaker Convert to the Church: Born into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Education: Rigby High School Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: Where Can I Turn for Peace Website: www.emilyfarmermusic.com Instagram: @Emilyfarmermusic Youtube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCrnUJGPpEOX6hxN6y6_WCZQ?view_as=subscriber Interview Produced By: Trina Caudle

Megan Spurlock was raised in the Church in Utah, but considers herself a convert because she did not commit to the Gospel and the Church until she was an adult. What was your experience with the Church while you were growing up? Both of my parents come from old pioneer families that crossed the plains. Both of my families are from polygamy, a long time ago. My parents met at BYU, so we’re very Mormon. I was definitely raised in the Church. We went to church every week, we had Family Home Evening every week, and all that typical stuff. But I just wasn’t into it for some reason. I hated going, and I got in fights with my parents. When I was 13, I told them, “I’m not doing this and I’m not going.” They asked why and I told them it meant nothing to me. I didn’t like being there and it didn’t make me feel very good. I remember very strongly disliking Young Women. I really didn’t like the focus on modesty and how girls are responsible for boys’ thoughts. That stuff used to always bug me as a teenager. Luckily, we’re moving in a better direction, I think. Megan Spurlock Once I moved away and went to college, I never really thought about it. Religion played no part in my life, and I didn’t want anything to do with it. I considered myself pretty atheist or agnostic. A lot of religious people hear the word “atheist” and they’re terrified. But there was no darkness associated with it for me, just neutrality, if that makes sense. Like – I don’t know what’s out there, so I’m just going to live my best life and continue moving forward. It didn’t bother me that I had no answer to things. I was okay with the ambiguity of everything. Plus, at that time, I was a biology major. Science answers questions, what I can see and feel is real, and I’m good with that. I went to Southern Utah University and graduated as a nurse, and then I moved to Salt Lake and had a couple of different jobs. My work initially started me on the path to finding some kind of higher power for support and strength – I had a really tough job in the Burn ICU (intensive care unit) at the University of Utah. It was really, really hard – people in the most intense pain you could ever see and so many people died or lost limbs. There were kids in there too. Plus, I was working nights, and days, with no consistency to the schedule, so I had a nervous breakdown. That sounds rough. What helped you make the mental turn to seeking support from a higher power, when that wasn’t something you’d ever considered before? I had a couple of days off work and I escaped to my parents’ house. My mom is a spiritual giant – she is very much a “Spirit of the law” kind of woman. She is incredibly strong and wonderful, and one of those women everyone is drawn to. She’s so strong and so fierce. She said something like, “This might be a job you need to leave. Maybe there’s something else out there that will work better for your life. Maybe you could ask the universe for help.” I thought, “Huh. Ask the universe for help. Okay.” I could at least concede that there’s something bigger than me. That’s an interesting way to put that because of you being anti-religion, agnostic and not really believing in God. She knew that talking to me in religious vocabulary would be a No! I’d put up a wall. People who don’t really want anything to do with religion, if you talk to them in that religious vocabulary. I think they feel like they’re being proselytized to. My mom knew that about me and knew to not go there. So she said to maybe ask the universe for help, the universe is big. There’s stuff we can’t understand…I think there’s something bigger than us, just see what you think. So, I actually did. I said, “Okay, Universe, I need some direction here and some guidance.” I found another job that was much easier on me, and I could work during the day, live a normal life, and start sleeping normally. Wow, the universe was listening, that’s cool, maybe try thanking the universe. I thought, “This is so weird but I’m going to do it anyway.” So I thanked the universe. Through that time, I was really struggling emotionally. The sleep deprivation of working such a hectic schedule got to me, and I started having really intense anxiety and panic attacks. My mom told me to talk to the universe, so I did. And I started to feel like something was talking back to me – like there was something actually listening to me, that cared, and was trying to communicate with me. Maybe not so much through words but more through feelings instead. And I started following that. It shifted so rather than talking to the universe, I started talking to a creator. I had experiences and feelings with some kind of spiritual Creator, some kind of spiritual Heavenly Parents, that were powerful enough that I couldn’t chalk it up to coincidence. I remember praying to the universe or my Creator and having these really great moments of what I can only call personal revelation. I had a lot of insight about myself and my life, and things that I had always said that I didn’t want but maybe I really did want. By that I mean – I always thought people who got married young were so silly, and I had this attitude about Mormon culture that I tried so hard to run away from. And then I came full circle. I thought, maybe I do want to get married and have a family and be with a nice guy and enjoy that simple bliss of life. Praying is a great start. What was the step to actually going to church? I started going to a singles ward, also at the suggestion of my mom, after I had expressed to her that I was praying to my Creator, and feeling all these great feelings that I had never experienced before, because I was actually seeking it out. I was 26 so I went to a singles ward where everyone was in their working career, taking themselves seriously, taking dating seriously, taking responsibility for themselves. I really liked that. I’d never experienced that before. I also loved how real they were in their testimonies. The Relief Society president said she struggled with the whole Joseph Smith story. Oh my gosh, me too, thank you for saying that. I appreciated the honesty, rather than pretending that everyone was on the same page and believed the same things. People said, “There are things that I don’t know and I work on that, but the things that I do know, that’s what I stick to.” I had such good feelings and started leaving the world that I had made for myself behind. I had broken up with a boyfriend. I was not hanging out with friends from college who mostly just drank and didn’t really do anything else with their lives. I started moving forward in the Church, following these feelings. I didn’t come into the Church because the Book of Mormon was compelling. I came into the Church because I started praying and hoping that something was out there, and then something WAS. That’s why I’m here. What did your college friends think of you going to church? Was there much pushback? I had so many friends who were ex-Mormons. They’d say, “But you know this about Joseph Smith, right? But you know this about the policy with gay people, right?” Yeah, I know all those things. I spent years researching those things and being mad. And I choose to believe that those things are not of God. I choose to believe that the goodness of the gospel has nothing to do with your skin color or your sexual orientation. It is for everybody. All those things – the policy in 2016 about the children of gay and lesbian couples, Black people not even able to participate in temple ordinances until the 1970s, that we’re a patriarchal church – all of those things, to me, were conditions of a mortal earth where white men have taken power in every aspect of society, including the Church. So everything was being filtered through their minds and experiences. That’s why what some guy said in 1820 or 1890 or 1950 – if it to me, it didn’t ring true of God’s love, then I reject it, if that makes sense. To me, my Heavenly Parents are love and acceptance and beauty and aren’t about eternal punishment or making us into somebody we’re not. To take that a couple of steps further, then, there are still things about the Church that you struggle with, even though you’re now a committed member. It’s interesting with my generation. It does require such constant conversation and communication on a spiritual level. Otherwise, it’s so easy to just let it fall aside. So many of my friends from Utah who were raised Mormon all left the Church. There’s so much in the Church’s past that we don’t super agree with, and our culture seems to be an all-or-nothing proposition. If you don’t accept everything with no hesitation, you’re labeled as bad or apostate. So people respond, “Well, I don’t know it all and I reject these few things, so I’m just gonna be out.” And they leave. They’re very bitter and angry, and I get it because there are painful things in the Church’s history and in the Church’s present. It really takes a lot of recognizing and looking at it with your eyes wide open – maybe this thing in the Church’s past wasn’t great, but I choose to believe that wasn’t God’s say – that was just some guy that said that. Last night, my husband and I had a very deep discussion about some of the more controversial things within the Church, and I said something like, “There’s a handful of things that keep me in, and the rest of it, I wonder – am I being a bad person by saying I choose to reject that.” Or am I just choosing that God is love and anything that’s not, I’m going to chalk that up that some guy said it in the 40s, and that’s okay. It’s been an interesting transition from religion not meaning anything at all to me, to when I started communicating with my Creator. It’s like it opened a spiritual aspect of my heart that I had never noticed was there before. It was suddenly this different dimension existed within me, but I could still be me. Some of the doctrine, some of the stuff in the Book of Mormon itself – I struggle wrapping my head around. I don’t feel those deep beautiful spiritual feelings necessarily. But the stuff that matters – my Creator, my Heavenly Parents, my Savior, my family – keeps me grounded. There’s so much that is hard to say, “I know this, or I know that.” It’s more like, “I hope this, or I hope that.” I want this to be true – it would be nice. I hope so! That’s where I’m coming from. Megan Spurlock and Her Family Is your husband a member of the Church? He is. He is also a born-and-raised Mormon Utah guy, went on his mission, attended the singles ward for ten years, Elders Quorum president, Sunday school president, all the things. A year before he met me, he said, “I can’t do this anymore” and just bailed. He’d been doing everything right his whole life but things just weren’t going anywhere. He did return to the Church after a short time away. He decided for himself, I do really want to be part of the gospel. This is a big deal for me. This is that important. I was also just coming into the Church and constantly being blown away with personal revelation and feeling really, really close to the Spirit and my Heavenly Parents. We immediately fell in love and were on the same page with what we wanted out of life, what we wanted with a family. I call it divine intervention that we met when we did because it was absurdly perfect timing. He was such a big part of my return to the Church because I had someone experiencing that with me. On our first few dates, we talked about the feeling of light. There was just something about being involved in the gospel that felt like light. There were things that we didn’t know and couldn’t describe, but we were going to follow that feeling anyway. A year later, the day we could get married in the temple, we did. That’s his story – born and raised, chose to leave, and chose to come back. All by himself, which is similar to my story. How do you define The Gospel? When I started coming into to the Church, I was lucky to have a really great bishop. He looked at me with love and acceptance. He didn’t need to know details of my past, which I appreciated, because that’s weird. He said, “I’m here to help you and assist you. You’re driving, what do you want? Do you want to be taking the sacrament? Do you want your temple recommend? What can I help you do?” He shared scriptures that talked about having a change of heart. That rang so true to me, because really, the only thing that ultimately mattered in my process of coming into the Church was that I had a relationship with my Heavenly Parents and my Savior. In leading up to being able to take the sacrament again – it’s not like I was being punished, it was “let’s have this date in a month be your first day to take the sacrament again. Prepare for it. Read this, think about that in this way, pray about it.” The first Sunday I could take the sacrament again – it was a ritual I’d seen done so many times as a child, but as an adult, I was choosing for myself to basically place all the stuff that I was struggling with onto my Savior and then take the sacrament. I remember feeling really deeply the presence of a man telling me all is good, everything’s fine, you’re good to go – when I took the sacrament again for the first time. So to me, the Gospel is our Heavenly Parents, our Savior, and the Atonement. It wasn’t about, “you’re forgiven for your past sins.” It was more like, “Hey, how do we become better every single day.” Not just about making up for a deficit you’ve created in your life but let’s just get better every single day. Megan Spurlock and Her Family That’s something so unique to Mormonism – the idea of eternal progression. The thought that you get to go to one place or the other, and you’re done forever – that doesn’t sound like an eternal truth. But eternal progression, even in a scientific aspect, that rings true to me, as opposed to you’re going to be somewhere, stagnant forever. That just doesn’t make sense. That’s what I call the Gospel – the big, real, true things that really, really matter. Everything else is culture. Everything else is bias, opinions even. Those are the big things that really matter. Of course, like being sealed in the temple, because eternal family is also such a unique and beautiful part of the gospel that is also, I think, an eternal truth. Even when I wasn’t religious at all, I still wanted to be with my family. Why wouldn’t I? Wherever I go next, I want to be with the people that I love, that sounds great. So that’s always been something that I’ve held as something that sounds nice so I want that. I read Brad Wilcox’s book The Continuous Atonement and it blew me away. That’s what I feel like the Gospel is. It’s not about being perfect, but about trying to be better and better and better. There’s no perfection to strive for, because it’s not possible right now. Are you better than you were yesterday? The idea that once we all die and get to where we’re going next, we’re probably going to go where we want to go. If we want to be with our Heavenly Parents, we’ll be there. Brad Wilcox says, “Christ is going to be there begging you to be with Him.” It’s not punishment or torment. It’s love and acceptance and light. At A Glance Name: Megan Spurlock Age: 31 Location: Orem, UT Marital History: Married to Nick Spurlock Children: Tommy - 20 months old Occupation: Nurse Educator Convert to Church: Grew up in the church, left, converted back in 2015 Schools Attended: Southern Utah University, BS in Nursing Languages Spoken at Home: English (Husband speaks Spanish too) Favorite Hymn: Be Still My Soul Interview Produced By: Trina Caudle

Marina Neto is a Portuguese woman of African ancestry. She was born in Portugal to immigrant parents from Sao Tome, and their family lived in Angola while she was a teenager. After returning to Portugal, she served a full-time mission for the Church in Cape Verde. She shares her perspective of racial injustice and micro-aggressions in Portugal. Although Portuguese is Marina’s first language, she has become fluent in English. This interview was conducted in English. I’m excited to hear your thoughts about being a Latter-day Saint in this time of social unrest around the world. Starting with the positive, what are some of the blessings that come with being Black and a Latter-day Saint? I love it because I went to church and I met the missionaries here in Portugal but my spiritual growth was all in Angola. Africa was amazing because I was surrounded by the culture and I got to see and understand the differences between church in Europe and church in Africa. When I got back to Portugal, it was amazing because I could share my culture in church. We do activities about African customs or things are just blended in because of my regular patterns of behavior. It never mattered whether I was Black and in the church, or if it did, it was always a positive thing because I always had something to bring to the table with knowledge of things that are done in a different way. Serving a mission in Cape Verde helped me learn even more cultural knowledge, such as how to wash clothing by hand and stuff that I didn’t know before. It’s all this learned and shared experience about African culture. It was always a good thing growing up in church and sharing it in church. It’s something that is valued and cherished by my peers, especially here in Lisbon, because people always ask me to cook, people always ask me how this is done or why this is done. It’s very good. I love it. Is your ward or stake in Portugal racially diverse? Yes, it is. There’s white people, there’s Black people. There’s a fair amount of each. It’s not just white people, it’s all of us. Marina Neto with Her Family I’m glad that you’ve had such a positive experience, both in Angola and Portugal, even though those experiences were different. What are some of the challenges that come with being Black and Mormon? I really thought about this, and this is something I discussed with my sister because she doesn’t have the same experience as me. She grew up in Angola – her whole spiritual growth was in Angola. She didn’t see the difference, because it was always Black people around her until she came to Portugal and there was a difference because there were white people around. She started noticing – it wasn’t even blatant racism because here in Portugal, there is racism but it’s more micro-aggression because people are very passive. So the first time that she realized that she was getting these micro-aggressions – and I’m speaking about her because it ties in with my own experience – when we started talking about it, she would actually be very upset because our mom said, “Just think of it as Christ would. He wouldn’t see it this way. It’s not something that you need to get upset about, it’s not something that you need to get mad about because it’s not about skin color or race. These are things that you get to rise above and be a better person and learn from.” And while that is true, it did take me awhile to get there. I felt very upset that my mom never let me or my sister be upset over this, because it’s things like sitting in a bus and realizing that people won’t sit next to you because of your skin color. Sometimes it doesn’t feel that way, but it does when you look around and every other person that is not Black has someone sitting next to them, and people would rather stand than sit by me. So it does feel a little bit like paranoia, but then you start noticing little comments here and there that people are comfortable with making that you feel uncomfortable with but you laugh at anyway because you don’t want to make people feel uncomfortable. So it’s a little bit challenging. We can definitely be upset about all these things that are happening in the world, and still understand that we need to rise above it if we want to stay sane. Otherwise, we would be angry all the time, which is something that happens at some point. So that was a struggle for us because I was always, “Mom, why can’t I be upset about this? Let me be upset, this is not fair. Not here, not in the USA, not anywhere. It just doesn’t make sense.” But then I started understanding and I think that was the biggest struggle for me – trying to see it as Christ would instead of me, Marina, who gets upset very easily about things like this. I imagine it’s so hard to control your temper and keep silent when things are unjust or when people say or do racist things. Not that you always should keep silent but that there’s a time and a place to respond, and you have to learn that time and place. Is that what I’m hearing you say? Yes. And also, at the end of the day, I would much rather help people understand that what they did hurt me or hurts the whole community, rather than just lashing out at them and allowing them to become defensive over it. I can sometimes be very harsh with words, so this is something that takes a lot of practice – not saying anything at the time, pondering, and going back to the person, because it’s usually people that we deal with every day. I try to explain my point of view so that it doesn’t become a heated exchange of ideas. I would rather people understand that it bothers me but that I’m delivering the message the right way. Yes, this is something I struggle with, but I have some very aware friends who help me in this. It’s always good to have allies. If I’m speaking up, someone helps me – that’s always good. That’s also something positive– people who help me deliver the message better. I prefer to be educating correctly. Marina Neto What has helped you overcome these challenges and maintain your faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ? You mention having friends and allies, and learning to think of what Christ would do and be more like Him, but that’s still hard sometimes. What makes that worth it? Why do you stay and continue to be part of the gospel when you experience injustices like this, even at church? What mainly helps me stay is knowing that none of us is really perfect. The good thing about my relationship with Christ is that if I feel that I’m going through something I shouldn’t be experiencing – like if I felt offended by something that someone said or did – I can always find comfort in Him, knowing He would never see me that way. He would never make that something important about me or judge me because of that. He will judge me because of my actions. It’s very cliché, but Christ won’t judge me because of the color of my skin or where I was born or who my parents are, where I should be, or if this is my country or not. So it’s always very good to know that, first of all, He would never do that to me. Second, He understands me because He suffered for everything, not just my sins, and He knows exactly what I’m going through. So I find comfort in that because it really is hard to go through these things. It’s very frustrating, but at the end of the day, I can go back to Him and find comfort. That helps me a lot. That’s beautifully said. I’m curious if you had any thoughts and impressions about President Oaks’ or President Nelson’s remarks on racism in the October 2020 General Conference. How do you feel about Church leaders speaking out more directly toward the whole Church than they’ve done before? I was going through my Instagram feed months ago when the Black Lives Matter movement was at a height because of George Floyd. The Church actually released a statement and I thought that was very well put. I was not expecting racism to be mentioned. When we were watching Conference, my sister paused it and went back to replay, I think it was President Nelson’s remarks on racism. I really loved it. I just felt seen and heard. He did speak about the way that protests are being handled, but he also did speak about racial injustice. I really loved it, and President Oaks’s remarks as well. I really like that the Church is taking this stand and making people aware that this is where we stand, and racial injustice shouldn’t be a thing. It’s kind of awesome. I really like it. I do too. And calling every member to do better, basically. Will you talk a little about how you have been involved in either protests or advocacy or just the social justice movement where you are? The United States has this horrible history of slavery and segregation, and then the George Floyd murder was here in the United States. So from my American perspective, I sometimes forget that this affects the whole world, and it affects race relations everywhere. Can you talk about what is going on in Portugal and how you’ve been involved? Marina Neto When this all started – I don’t post on social media, ever – but I did use Instagram a little bit. We did have a Black Lives Matter protest. There were two but then they merged into one, and it was beautiful. This is going to get into politics, but anyway – one of the political parties here in Portugal started another protest saying that Portugal is not racist. It made me very upset because the racism here is not blatant or always visible, but it’s there. That’s why I said micro-aggressions – people are very, very passive. They want to make sure it looks as though there is no racism in Portugal when that’s not even true because this is where all the colonizing started. This is kind of where all the racism stuff started, with differentiating by skin colors and going out to Africa and slavery and everything else.Sharing my knowledge with my friends was the best that I could do. I was posting on WhatsApp, I was signing petitions and everything. It actually affects Portugal a lot and Europe in general. But, as I said, in Europe, people want to make sure that they keep things under wraps. That’s something I really don’t like because Portugal does have racism. It’s just that the people who don’t suffer from it don’t know about it, but they speak over other people, which makes it worse for me. It’s worse in Portugal than in the US, just because in the US, racism is acknowledged – people know. Here, we just try to hide it, which is not ideal when we’re trying to fight it. To some extent, at least in my line of work, there is no inequality, you don’t get any injustice because you’re Black. Your appearance really does not matter, but that’s because I work in a call center. But still, there are things that we need to fight off and they’re never talked about. If they’re talked about at all, they’re pushed to the side because Portugal is not racist, or so they say. The most social activism I do is on social media with my friends. I do try to make them aware because yeah, some people really think that racism is not a thing here. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It happens every day with micro-aggressions – comments about hairstyle, jokes about skin color and other things like that. There have been some murders but they’re just not acknowledged. Sometimes they’re not even classified as hate crimes when they blatantly are hate crimes because everything is being stuffed under the rug. That’s really informative. In the US, too, there are people who deny that racism still exists and say that it’s a thing of the past. So the more we talk about it, the better, I think. The more that people share their experiences and point out, “Hey, this racist thing happened to me last week,” the more people will realize that there’s still stuff going on even if it’s not just murders and employment discrimination. It’s still out there. Definitely. Some people say, “Well, yeah, but racism in Europe or Portugal is not the same as in the US… it’s so different.” Are you serious? In Portugal, we should have the same hysteria after a murder that people have in the US. These things happen everywhere and we need to acknowledge it and not fight the current. We definitely need to not speak over the people that are coming forward to let you know that something is wrong. Marina Neto How did your time in Angola shape your experience, as opposed to another Portuguese person who is Black who has never lived in another country? Living in Angola opened my eyes to how I feel in an environment where I am the same as everybody else. Coming back to Portugal helped me realize that I get two sides of the coin. I can tell the difference much better when there are micro-aggressions that shouldn’t be said and are offensive and damaging. I lived here [Portugal] until I was 13, went to Angola until 17 and then came back. When I was 13, I didn’t understand anything. I didn’t see anything said to me as bad really, because I didn’t know anything different. It was just what it always was – I was Marina, I was Black and the majority is white. Sometimes there was this joke, or there was this thing said, or this situation happened, and I thought, “Well, okay, it’s something probably everybody experiences.” Then I went to Angola and I experienced nothing of the sort. And I remember realizing, “Hmm. I think I see it, or I think I understand what that is now.” So I think for people who have lived in Portugal their whole lives, it might be harder to tell at first, unless some other people start sharing with them. Then they can understand, if this a known pattern for people who are Black living among white people or just somewhere they’re not the majority, maybe this is a micro-aggression. So it did help me realize what was offensive or not. It was two different environments. I was baffled when I started realizing things, and then my sister actually came to the same realization because she lived in Angola and then she came here. Because it’s two different experiences, it helps you understand what should and should not be said to you, or the differences and the discrimination. Marina Neto and a Missionary Companion What do you want your fellow sisters and brothers in the gospel to know about your experience as a Black Latter-day Saint? Sometimes I can be very pessimistic, but about racial justice issues, I have to keep positive. Some things we can’t change – people have agency. We can’t just make people change, so if I’m going to become frustrated about that, then … yeah, I would be very, very sad. So that’s why I try to keep positive. Being a Latter-day Saint helps me handle things much better, any situation. When I feel offended, I can realize, yeah, it’s okay to be offended by that but try to see the other person’s side and understand that being mad hurts only me. I’m very, very happy that I am a Black woman and that I’m a member of the Church because my Savior has so much love for me. I would never be able to go through all these things feeling insecure, feeling unsafe, feeling sometimes physically bad because of news that we hear every day. I wouldn’t be able to go through it if it wasn’t for the hope that the Savior gives me. It can be the same for all of us. I would say to my fellow Black Latter-day Saints, that still we should keep our hope because even if we feel unsafe, or we feel the injustice and we feel very, very angry, it’s not how the Savior would want us to feel unless we’re using that to better ourselves, to learn how to control that, to learn how to be socially aware and help other people to understand our struggles as well. We can’t really ask other people to be better if we don’t better ourselves. That’s mainly what I would like to say about my experience as a Latter-day Saint. At A Glance Name: Marina Graça Santos Bragança Neto Age: 25 Location: Lisbon, Portugal Marital History: Single Occupation: Technical Support Advisor at a call center Convert to Church?: August 12, 2006 Education: High school graduate Languages Spoken at Home: Portuguese and English Interview produced by Allie Bradford Brown

Taylor Christensen was raised in an adoptive family. She has always known that she is loved and that she belongs. Taylor was also curious about her birth parents. In the 1990s, when Taylor was born and placed for adoption, it was common for adoptions to be closed. After taking a DNA test through Ancestry.com as an adult, Taylor was able to find and meet her birth parent, Chris. Taylor has learned through her journey the importance of family. Tell me about yourself. I was born in Sandy, Utah and the next day I went home to Springville with my adoptive parents. The adoption was through LDS Social Services (now LDS Family Services). I have an older sister, Heather, she’s two years older than me, she’s also adopted. I was raised in the Church and my family has always been active and involved. I met my husband, Carsten, on my mission in Mexico, he was on his mission as well! He asked for my email the day he went home, and we emailed back and forth during the last six months of my mission. We were both dating other people when I got home from my mission but it didn’t take long for Carsten to get in contact with me again to ask me on an official date. I knew it was serious after our third date. Taylor Christensen Was the adoption open or closed? Did you know anything about your birth parents? I didn’t really know anything about my birth parents, only vague information that couldn’t be traced. I didn’t know names, addresses, where they were from, or anything like that. I did know that my birth mother loved animals, dogs, horses, and that she wanted to potentially train police dogs or work with animals in some way. I knew that she had blue-green eyes and brown hair. I knew how tall she was. It was mostly things that would help me know what I might look like when I grew up. I didn’t know anything else about her. Adoptions through LDS Social Services were closed at that time, and I think in the whole state of Utah. Was your sister’s adoption also closed? My sister’s adoption was also closed. LDS Social Services allowed letters to be sent through their office, but they would go through them and redact any personal or identifying information in any letters. They used a black Sharpie marker to hide that information. My parents must have included some information on accident in a letter because my sister’s birth mom was able to hold it up to the light and get first names. When my sister was 18, her birth mom reached out to her through Facebook. They were able to meet, it was really worth it for my sister to finally meet her birth mom. Were you ever curious about your birth parents? I love my family. My sister and I have always known we were adopted, since we could first understand that concept. That never changed how close and loving we have been as a family. But I have always been curious about my birth mother! Of course! There were so many times when I wondered about her. I never wished I was with her, I just wondered about her, what she was like. How did you find out about your birth mother? I got a DNA test through Ancestry.com. It gives you all this information about people you’re related to. Mostly, these people are distant relatives. I have a close friend whose mom is really interested in family history and sorting through ancestry information, and she has helped other people find birth parents in the past. She offered to help me. She asked if she could have access to my Ancestry information and go through it to help me narrow it down to potential birth parents. She did some master research with my information, and through using Facebook as well, she narrowed it down to a particular couple that she thought were my birth grandparents. She wasn’t sure which of their daughters was my actual birth mother, but she was confident in who my birth grandparents were. I got on Facebook to check this out with all the non-identifying information that I’ve always had about my birth mother, including physical descriptions as well as my birth grandparents’ occupations. I knew that my birth grandpa was an air traffic controller and my birth grandma was in real estate, and that’s literally what it said on their joint Facebook page! I was like, oh my gosh, it has to be, right? They were both from the Salt Lake Valley and at the time were living in St. George. I Facebook messaged them and set up a time to meet. This was in October 2018. I went to St. George to meet them, I also got to meet their son and one of their daughters. It was really exciting. I then found out about my birth parents. Taylor and Chris What is your birth parent like? Chris had a hard childhood. She had ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder), but back in the late ‘70s they didn’t diagnose girls with ADHD. They thought if you’re a girl, you can’t have ADHD, that’s impossible. They ended up misdiagnosing her with schizophrenia as a teenager. She was taken from her family and placed in a state mental ward for a few months. It was absolutely a misdiagnosis. By the time she got her GED, she and her family realized she was not schizophrenic. A doctor working with them said that the science was showing that girls can, in fact, have ADHD. She was able to get on correct medications to help her function well. She had a really hard time, she struggled at school, her childhood and school years were hard for her. She struggled with depression and anxiety. I don’t know the situation surrounding her pregnancy with me, she can’t remember much about the guy, my birth dad. I believe she made the right choice to place me for adoption. Was that meeting difficult for you? I thought it was fun, it was cool and exciting. My family is the most important thing to me, so I got to include more family into my circle. It’s wonderful that I was placed for adoption with my family, I wouldn’t change that for anything. How has this prepared you for your own family and in your own motherhood journey? The family life that I grew up in prepared me to give my daughter Kate all my unconditional love. I share my testimony with her, help her to know that our family is forever, that she’ll be loved forever, and always have our support. We all struggle and we all have hard things that we deal with. My birth parent, Chris, has the love from family forever and has a strong support system. We don’t make decisions for other people, we don’t get to judge people. The point is to just love. You love your family for who they are. That’s what Chris’s family has done and it’s really cool. Taylor and Her Family What does an eternal family mean to you? I am loved and I belong. Being able to grow up knowing this was really nice. I grew up with unconditional love. I grew up knowing that my family is eternal. I felt so secure because I knew my family was mine forever and ever. It felt good, it felt safe. I think that’s so important. I’m very grateful for my parents and their testimonies that bolstered me as a child and teenager. I grew up in an incredible neighborhood, a great ward, all my best friends are from that ward. It’s wonderful. It was a strong foundation for me to take off from, to know for myself that families are eternal and know of the gift that Christ gave us, the Atonement. It’s so comforting to have the gospel, I feel like I don’t have to worry. Life can get scary sometimes so it brings me hope and peace to know I’ll be with my eternal family. I love psychology and human development, looking at nature vs. nurture is fascinating. I love thinking about how I belong with my adoptive parents, and to also analyze traits I clearly inherited genetically. Chris has four siblings. The sisters are very feminine and blonde, but Chris has brown hair. Chris always felt closer to the brother, they wore the same clothes, and played all the same sports. My birth grandpa showed me pictures and home videos of Chris as a child and I thought, “That’s me!” I had the same short haircut, I enjoyed the same things Chris enjoyed. I liked all the “boy” gender typical things. The boys were always the heroes in the stories and I identified with that. When I was play-acting as a child, I always wanted the boy part because they were allowed to have the cooler roles! The boys were doing all the active things and were the center of the story! Why can’t girls be that? I can be strong, fast, good at sports, and also get married and have a baby. I want my daughter Kate to see girls being the heroes. I want Kate to see girls doing the cool stuff. It’s one thing to say it, but I need her to see it! As a child I was told that girls could do anything, but it was hard for me to imagine because it wasn’t represented in media, shows, or movies. Kate will see Captain Marvel, she’ll see Wonder Woman – women being heroes and not just the sidekick or the love interest. Representation is so important! I can show my daughter that she can do anything, I can help her to know her power. She can be a princess, a superhero, or both. Kate will know that she can do anything. At A Glance Name: Taylor Kim Christensen Age: 27 Location: Logan, Utah Marital History: Married to Carsten Children: One daughter, Kate Occupation: SAHM Convert to Church?: No Schools Attended: Snow College, USU, UVU (Bachelor’s Social Science Education) Languages Spoken at Home: English, occasionally Spanish (non native) Favorite Hymn: All Creatures of our God and King Interview Produced by Megan Spurlock

Rose Datoc Dall is a painter whose art has been recently featured in multiple books produced by LDS-affiliated publishers. Throughout her career, she has focused on a woman’s perspective in presenting scenes from the New Testament, particularly the life of the Savior and His mother, Mary. When and how did you start painting? I’ve been doing it all my life – I’ve always been inclined to drawing and painting. I was born in Washington DC and raised in Northern Virginia, and I got my degree in Fine Arts Studio and Art History from Virginia Commonwealth University School of the Arts in 1990. Have you focused on art for the entirety of your career, or was it on the side while you did other things? Rose Datoc Dall Painting My husband and I got married when we were both seniors in college. He was at Utah State, so it was a long-distance relationship while I was going to school out in Virginia. (We’d been dating long distance for about a year prior to marriage). We then moved out to Utah because he was finishing at Utah State. Therefore, I took my last few remaining credits there. We started having kids very quickly; within 15 months of being married, we had our first child. The first two were close together, then the third and fourth all within five years. So I jumped into motherhood and was really just doing the mom thing. I was painting, but as you can imagine, not a lot, being a full-time mom. When my kids were infants, I had to cut myself some slack. My kids are all grown now. It’s hard to believe all that time went by so fast. Our youngest is on a mission and the rest are all grown. Two are married and one engaged. My ability to make more time for painting increased as my kids got older. I’m doing art full-time now as an empty-nester. What made you decide to focus on the scriptures and themes of faith in your art? Drawing Study of Christ by Rose Datoc Dall As a young mom, my artist friends were doing art shows and I was knee-deep in laundry and dirty diapers. I remember being so discouraged and I thought, “Well, maybe I’m not supposed to use my talent. Maybe I’d better put this on the altar because you know what…obviously things aren’t working here, and I’m kicking against the pricks. Maybe this dream of being an artist isn’t really what I should be doing.” So I took it to the Lord and got down on my knees. It was, in a way, making a bargain, or maybe a covenant. I said, “If I am to continue to do art, then I will dedicate my work to the Lord.” To be honest, growing up not a member of the Church and going to an art school that was not a church school. I totally did not see myself doing religious art. Not a chance. I didn’t, at the time, see it as a relevant form of art. I dismissed it because a lot of religious art really didn’t interest me. It was illustration, and I didn’t think that was what I was about. But then I prayed. I said, “If you want me to put my paints away, if you want me to just give this up and be a mom, okay. But just tell me. Because I’m tired of trying to make this work on my own. But if I did continue, I would dedicate it to the Lord”. The answer that I got was really sweet: No, I didn’t need to put my paintbrushes away, but I did need to know that there are times and seasons to everything. My skill would keep – it’s like riding a bicycle in a lot of ways. Things would happen in their time. That was the answer. It was a wave of peace. That’s good advice for young moms, and similar to what Sister Joy D. Jones said in the April 2020 General Conference – you don’t have to wear all the hats at the same time. Do you have thoughts for young moms who want to maintain their own interests and career while raising their children? In hindsight, I look at myself when I was young and naïve, you think you can do everything. But then when you don’t perform, you kick yourself. I spun my wheels a lot just worrying, “My talents are going to dwindle and the world is passing me by.” Furthermore, the second half of the answer to my prayer was really important: I should not compare my career nor my life to others, because that’s a downward spiral. Someone is always going to be better; someone is always going to be more accelerated in their career. There’s always going to be somebody who is “making it.” I have since gone by that advice. I wish I could have told myself that earlier, but I think I had to go through that type of pain. I know what it’s like to be hungry but you can’t do anything about it. Having said that, if you’re the sole breadwinner and you’re making your money doing art, that’s a different story. This is for those moms who feel like they’re having to put things aside to raise children. Young Son of Man and Mother by Rose Datoc Dall My message to stay-at-home moms is that your life will ebb and flow, and follow your kids’ activities. There are going to be times when you can fit your personal interests and career plans into your life, and sometimes not. You’re also going to have different church callings, and other things thrown at you. For example, I have lupus, and there were a few years that I was in a lot of pain (we have since been able to figure out what was going on and manage it). I also had breast cancer. Things like that – interruptions happen. Also, big events in life happened – my two daughters got married. Therefore, you have to be willing to roll with the punches, be flexible, and be okay with that. If you’re going to be a mom, embrace it. And what I’ve come to find is that being a mother has completely informed my art. My message to young moms is: you’re not missing out. Motherhood could potentially inform your art and make it even more powerful. What did you do to continue to move forward with your art as you raised your children? I always tried to do at least one group show per year. I was made aware that the Church has an International Art Competition every three years and I started entering it back in the 1990s. The first time I entered, I wasn’t accepted but every competition since, I have gotten in. It got me in this groove, and the Church started to take notice of me. I have since won three Purchase Awards through that exhibition – the Church History Museum started acquiring my art. Something clicked and I realized that I had something to say. I realized that I could bring my contemporary sensibilities to my religious art and I was able to create an intersection that made sense. Before, I had imagined myself in New York doing exhibitions, not doing religious art at all. I feel like the Lord has led me down a different path. It was kind of hard to give that up and to shift. A lot of life is about making decisions and making some sacrifices. Even if people dismissed my art because I decided to focus on spiritual subjects (I didn’t know if I would lose respect in the art community), I’ve come to realize that if I’d tried to go in a more worldly direction, I don’t think I would have the success that I have now. Thus, I can only speculate.But I do know that what has given my art power is my testimony. I can’t separate my religious self from my art. You have to infuse yourself into your art. My art would have come out spiritual anyway because that’s what I’m passionate about. Any art that matters needs to have a bit of you in it. It has to be authentic. And what I’ve come to find is that being a mother has completely informed my art. Can you elaborate on how motherhood influenced your art so strongly? Mary and Child by Rose Datoc Dall I’ve been drawing New Testament images of Christ for thirty years – in particular, I’ve been painting Mary for twenty of those years from a mother’s point of view during the early years of the Savior. These years are not even really described in the scriptures. I was imagining, and really fixated on the idea: what would it have been like to be Mary, to be the mother of the Savior? We look at it from the outside in, but I was trying to look at it from the inside out. She’s the one who had to deal with the boy Savior every day – changing His diapers and doing the ordinary work of raising this child. That was such a singular experience for her, and I tried to imagine that. The idea blew my mind. This whole painting series was from a woman’s point of view. Motherhood completely influenced my art because it was through the eyes of a mother that I painted this entire series, this long, long career of New Testament imagery. A lot of it isn’t just illustration, it is a personal commentary of a particular aspect or principle. What do you mean by a personal commentary of a principle? I’m not necessarily trying to teach a principle – it’s more like when I have a learning moment; that’s what I’m trying to paint. For instance, when I paint a New Testament scene – I did a painting called “What Lack I Yet?” – it’s Christ with the rich young man, mano a mano, two profiles of Christ and the rich young man, and he’s asking the Savior, “What lack I yet?” I’m projecting myself as the rich young man. In this painting, he hasn’t made the decision – he’s at a crossroads. I feel like I should be asking the Savior that question all the time. “What lack I yet? What do I need to be doing? What course correction is necessary?” Another painting I did was just recently published in Hear Him, the new book with many depictions of Christ. The one I chose is called “Where Are Those, Thine Accusers?” and they asked me to write an excerpt for the book. It’s a painting of the adulterous woman. As I usually try to project myself, not that I see myself as an adulterous woman, it’s a painting about forgiveness. It’s not about, “Oh, I did this heinous thing” – it’s about forgiveness and self-forgiveness. I sometimes ask, “Why am I having a hard time forgiving myself when the Lord has already forgiven me?” Another message too is: it’s not about the nay-sayers. It’s really only between you and the Lord. Where are Those Thine Accusers by Rose Datoc Dall That is really beautiful. Another painting I did is called “Living Waters” – the Church History Museum purchased that. It’s the Pool of Bethesda. In this painting, the paralytic man is centered in the foreground, reaching toward the water. Christ is approaching from behind, descending the stairs, and is lit with light. Though the painting is called “Living Waters,” it’s not really about the Pool of Bethesda – Christ is the Living Waters. It’s a reminder that we might be reaching for something, thinking this other thing is going to save us when we should be reaching for Christ.I’m always, always projecting myself into the painting – that is my commentary. Many paintings represent my “Ah-ha!” moments about a particular principle while listening to an awesome talk for example, and I think, “Oh wow, that blew my mind!” Some people journal about it. Well, I paint about it. A lot of my paintings are, in a way, like journal moments, the really cool “Ah-ha!” moments. That’s why I call them commentaries. So your paintings have expanded beyond the early years of the Savior’s life into the adult years and His teachings. I have a whole series of New Testament paintings that explored the adult years of the Savior’s life. I’ve actually depicted Christ from cradle to grave, and I’ve tried to consistently use the same model. However, I switched model prototypes this year – you see, the world went a little crazy in 2020, and I suddenly had a shift in my racial awareness (along with the rest of the world): I had been painting Christ as an “icon” for thirty years, the “inherited icon,” a very recognizable white Jesus. I was not really aware, and I was just continuing this tradition that I’d inherited. But it was this year (2020) that I started painting Christ with more Semitic features to honor his heritage. Changing was a hard choice because I thought, “Did I just make thirty years of my artwork obsolete?” I thought about it and you know what, I concluded, no it didn’t. That is still part of me. My earlier paintings are still part of my art. It’s part of my own personal story that I’ve made the switch. It was kind of risky to do it very abruptly, but I really felt like I needed to do it. Many of my Instagram followers were saying, “YES!” Not knowing how this would go, I thought I was going to lose followers. But the response I got was, “It’s about time.” Other artists said, “You’re giving us permission to do this too.” I’m working on another painting right now – I heard a General Conference talk a couple of years ago about Christ turning the water into wine, and the point of that talk was that we are transformed, like the water was into wine when we consecrate ourselves. I wanted to translate that into a painting. I did some drawings and I think I posted the study on Instagram last year. That idea has been sitting around in my head and I’m going to paint “Water Into Wine” with the new Semitic depiction of Christ. You have another painting – “Worlds Without Number” – that is not from the New Testament but is a depiction of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. How did that one come to be? Worlds Without Number by Rose Datoc Dall I was asked to paint an image for McArthur Krishna’s book, A Boy’s Guide to Heavenly Mother. This painting was probably the most difficult painting I’ve ever painted to date. I’ve painted a lot of difficult things technically. This painting was both technically challenging and conceptually challenging. I started the painting as just a portrait of Heavenly Mother. Yet for some reason, I could not make it work. I then felt – “Ah-ha, now I know why it’s not working: it’s a partnership, and it needs to include Heavenly Father.” It was a struggle until I could really nail down what needed to be painted. This is what came out. I had to be really careful because this is uncharted territory. My disclaimer is that this is my personal interpretation. I tried to stay doctrinal – I didn’t want to just go off on my own musings, so I was reading everything I could find. There’s not a lot – there’s more than I thought there was, but really, there’s not a lot. I didn’t want to go so far off into doctrine-according-to-Rose and get excommunicated for painting this. I went by what we learn in the temple. I tried to keep it consistent with what we know about that and the Abrahamic covenant, and what that means. That’s what this painting is about – the eternal – the worlds without number – that’s what we’re going to be doing – creating worlds without number in a partnership. That’s what the painting is all about. I’ve seen a lot of people write about developing a relationship with Heavenly Mother, or Heavenly Parents – Them instead of just Him. Did creating this painting change anything for you? It was the second time I was approached to do a project about Heavenly Mother. I didn’t really think about Her much until I started having more conversations with other women who are so passionate about the existence of Heavenly Mother. That was when I really started to think about it. As I was working on the first project, the Church changed the Young Women theme during General Conference – I thought, “Oh my gosh! This is happening!” Then Elder Holland in the same conference referred to Heavenly Parents. I thought, “It’s about time!” I think one reason why nobody talked about it is because nobody really thought to talk about it. I was in that boat until there was more conversation. That got me really thinking and I started to realize: “Yes, how could it not be? How could there not be a Heavenly Mother?” With mentions in General Conference and the Young Women theme about Heavenly Parents, it also mentions them in the Family Proclamation, but it gets sort of easily overlooked. I don’t know that I’ve actually communicated with Heavenly Mother. It’s not that I necessarily pray to Her. But I definitely feel more assurance of Her existence, and more of Her importance in the background. The MWP has greatly benefited from the use of Rose Datoc Dall’s artwork on our website over the years. Thank you Rose for supporting the MWP and for sharing your talents with us. At A Glance Name: Rose Datoc Dall Age: 52 Location: Lehi, Utah Marital History: Married Children: 4 (3 grandchildren, so far) Occupation: Fine Artist (painter) Convert to Church?: Convert, September 4, 1987 Education: BFA in Fine Art Studio & Art History Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing Website: rosedatocdall.com Social: @rosedatocall Interview Produced by Trina Caudle

Melodie Jackson grew up in a predominantly Black community in Mississippi and did not become fully aware of racial and social justice issues within the Church and in the United States until she served a full-time mission in Brazil and attended BYU in Utah. In response to the societal turmoil over the high-profile murders of multiple Black people in 2020, she launched the “Black Lives Matter To Christ” Facebook page. She hosts devotionals for Black members of the Church to share their experiences of racism and the comfort they find in Jesus Christ. What is the background of how you started working on social justice issues? I’ve talked about this a lot recently – my journey into consciousness and being aware of racial injustice in America. I was aware of these things in high school. Black History Month was my favorite month, I was on a Black history quiz-bowl tournament team, all my poetry…I went back and read my poetry and it was all centered in the experiences of Black lives. Growing up, I just wasn’t aware of racial problems in the world. My grandmother told me stories but in my mind, they were very particular to Mississippi. I had no idea of institutional systemic things. I was surrounded by so much Blackness – my family, my neighborhood, my school – that church was literally the only white space I occupied. Somehow, I separated church from the world. It didn’t really occur to me that the racial things I noticed in the world also could happen at church. It wasn’t even a possibility in my mind that those two things collided. As I’ve gotten the language and vision to recognize racism in the world when I look back over my youth, there are things that didn’t really occur to me then, but I notice now. Why was my family the only Black family to consistently attend the ward? Why did my grandmother, who loved-loved-loved going to church and going to Relief Society, stop going to Relief Society one Sunday, but would make us stay and come pick us up afterward? Why were there not more Black people in church? When did that perception of the Church being a white space shift for you? Melodie Jackson as a Missionary My mission definitely awakened the idea of racial injustice, especially within the Church. Having a Black mission president blew my mind, but not until I thought about it. I grew up in Mississippi and I’d only seen three Black priesthood leaders and just a few Black families in the entire stake. Mississippi is 50 or 60 percent Black. On my mission, I had Black bishops and Black stake presidents. I saw tons of other Black missionaries. I was the only one from the United States, which is very telling. There were Black missionaries from Brazil, Black missionaries from Europe, Black missionaries from Continental Africa. Wait – this is not the church I experienced in Mississippi. I’ve heard that the Church situation in Brazil was the tipping point for removing the ban on Black people being ordained to the priesthood and attending the temple. The rule was “not one ounce of Black blood,” and they got to Brazil where this person was a quarter and that person an eighth, and what were they going to do about that. Is that true? That’s true. Shout-out to my Ph.D. research that hopefully will cover that more in-depth. It started with President David O. McKay. McKay, in terms of pre-Kimball prophets, had this question because he had gone to different countries. His perception of race relations was vastly different than previous prophets before him because he had gone to New Zealand and different places in Polynesia and had formed a relationship with these people. So he came back to America and then became the prophet, and started having questions about the priesthood ban, and started thinking about Brazil. In 1978, the Sao Paulo Temple was built. So that was the catalyst – the Sao Paulo Temple. Primary Children at the Temple There were Black members building the temple and paying their tithing, and putting in the effort to see this temple built. They had this conflict of interest – these people were very faithful and working really hard. But they couldn’t go into the temple.Race relations in Brazil are very different from race relations in America. In the US, there’s the legacy of the one-drop rule. For Brazil, you can’t really do such a sharp contrast because they didn’t have laws that segregated Black people and white people like America did, so there was a lot of intermixing. So the Church leaders had questions of what to do with that – how do they test Blackness? David O. McKay had that question a lot – is it one fifth, one-tenth, one percent – which is crazy because you can’t really measure race. Going on my mission to Brazil and seeing these Black leaders – not just in priesthood positions but as Relief Society presidents and Sunday School teachers, my mission president’s wife was a Black woman … A majority of the members in the areas in which I served – they looked Black. So it was unbelievable to me that there was a priesthood and temple ban. It completely shifted how I viewed Black bodies in the Church as a possibility and could be the norm. I know that Brazil isn’t the perfect place to look at race relations – if you look at the highest leaders of the Church in Brazil, they’re all white and of European descent. But my mission completely opened my eyes and showed me that Black people occupy a large space in this Church. They have contributed significantly to the history of the Church, the history of temples, the history of community worshipping, and just building the Church. If you took out the members in Brazil, the membership numbers would significantly decrease. When you came home from Brazil, you went to BYU. How did you get involved with social justice issues and classes there? I did my freshman year at BYU before my mission, and I thought it was this utopia. BYU was the greatest place ever! My roommates were so awesome! I loved my experience. Then I got this lens, and coming back to BYU was so bizarre. I came back from my mission in April 2016 – that was the summer that Philando Castile was murdered in Minnesota and Alton Sterling was murdered in Louisiana. That also was a shock to my system. A friend reached out to me because she saw some of the things I was posting on Facebook, trying to articulate these feelings that I didn’t really have the language to say yet. She said, “I’m a teacher’s assistant for a sociology class, Race and Ethnicity. You should take it.” That class and my mission completely awakened something in me – things that I’d noticed as a child and youth but I didn’t know how to explain or understand it. Those two things gave me the language and the eyes to see things that were going on in the world and in the Church. Once I started recognizing things and became more vocal, there was immediate pushback. People would question my testimony or immediately shut down whatever I was saying. I’m grateful to certain professors who gave me space and said, “No, we’re going to listen to everyone. Everyone can express their opinions and especially their lived experience without there being immediate rejection.” In that first sociology class, there was a power struggle because there was this group of white men in the back – why you even here? Every single class period – the professor was a Black man – we would learn something and that group in the back would tell him he’s wrong and invalidate his experience. My religion classes were really the power struggle. I was changing how I perceived the Church, how I perceived doctrine, how I perceived leaders, and I was very vocal about that. There was immediate fear. In one of my classes, we were talking about prophets and I raised my hand – “We should probably also discuss that prophets aren’t perfect and they make mistakes. Like the priesthood ban – that was a mistake, that was not of God.” A student waited for me after class to tell me how wrong I was, and that Black people are cursed, and until I showed him some document by recent leaders that the words of Brigham Young were incorrect, he would not change his mind. As if I served him. I felt so very uncomfortable all the time. I was traveling this line of hyper-visibility and invisibility. Hyper-visibility because I’m Black and there were only about 300 Black students out of 33,000 students at BYU. Invisible by always having my thoughts invalidated and always having my experience questioned. What did you do for a support network at BYU to help you deal with that? I took these classes and was finding Black friends, and we started going to the Black Student Union. Someone asked me if I’d ever been to the Genesis Group – it gave me the community that I needed so badly within the Church. It was a really beautiful experience to worship with other Black people with a Gospel choir, with hand-clapping, with preaching. It just felt like home. It felt like a safe space. It felt so good to have a shared experience with Black people in the Church and discuss what it meant to have a Black body in this church and still have our testimonies, while struggling with the conflict of Blackness within our theology and also within our culture as a church. I’ve heard of the Genesis Group but never really understood it. The way you describe it sounds like a Spanish Ward in such-and-such stake, except it’s not Spanish or another language, it’s for Black people. BYU Students with Darius Gray I wish it was that. It was started in 1972, six years before the priesthood ban was lifted. Darius Gray and a couple of others were baptized into the Church and they were struggling because there weren’t a lot of Black people. Also, they couldn’t hold the priesthood or go to the temple. They were gathering together mostly as a support group, processing what it meant to be in this Church and not be a full member. So they approached President Hinckley and said, “Hey, Black people are struggling in the Church and we need to do something about it or they’re going to keep leaving. This is our church too and we need a space where we feel supported.” So the general authorities came up with the Genesis group. It’s a gathering space for Black people. It’s not a ward because it meets only once a month. It’s more of a devotional or fireside type atmosphere. There’s a presidency and they have activities. There’s a Relief Society and Primary and Young Women, but it’s not officially recognized as a ward. So that helped you with extra support at BYU. Tell me about the Black Student Union [BSU] on campus – was it already a group or did you help form that? I could never take credit for that. It was already a group. It was small when I first started going, and last year, it was 60 or 70 people. I became the vice president so I was in charge of different activities every month to help Black students at BYU. It was really a safe space where we could talk about what it meant to be Black at BYU. We could organize and plan – let’s see if we could push this department to have a panel about this, or let’s see if we can do something about this, have a protest, petition the school to have a required class about race. Stuff like that. It was really a cool space where we could come together and talk about our different experiences. Even being Black, the experience of Black people from the US were so very different from the experience of Black people from continental Africa. So very different! We often clashed, because they just had a different experience with racism and white supremacy and whiteness. Colonialism is very different from what we have experienced in America as Black people. Our experiences were different but it was a really cool space to come and have those conflicts and see how we could join together in getting so many things done at BYU. The people who came before us – we stood at their feet because they had done so much. There is still so much to be done at BYU and the Black Student Union is a gathering space to come up with ideas to change things. When you left BYU, did you feel like you had resolved anything, or was it – good luck, see ya later! When I left BYU, I felt relieved. It was not an academically challenging place for me but it was so taxing on my spirit and mental health. I definitely know that all the work I did there as an organizer and an activist – it was never really for myself but for the people that come behind me. It’s been cool and beautiful to see the little seeds that I planted – people at BYU now are watering those seeds. Bryan Stevenson came to BYU – he wrote the book Just Mercy and created an organization that frees innocent people on death row, the Equal Justice Initiative. He also started a monument in Birmingham Alabama to commemorate lynchings in America – the first memorial to those victims in a public space, our public memory. He came to BYU and talked about his book and the memorial. I had already been thinking about building names on campus because I was on a committee in Provo to rename Squaw Peak, because it’s a derogatory word for an indigenous woman. I was thinking about places and spaces and the names that we give them, and how that translates to violence and affects people in the community. I am not ashamed about this but I completely fabricated the question I submitted to ask Stevenson because I knew they wouldn’t approve my real question. I said, “I see the work that you’ve done in Birmingham with public memory, and calling people to be accountable for the way we remember things. How can we translate that here at BYU where our school is named after a man who said racist things, our buildings – Abraham Smoot was a slave owner, leaders have said racist things, have been anti-Civil Rights, anti-Black.” He was so happy I asked that question because he had done research about BYU and he was waiting for someone to bring that up! After that, I formed a committee of professors – do we try to rename the buildings, or do we add a plaque next to the building that accounts for the true history of these people for which these buildings are named. After I left BYU, two of my really close friends partnered with the NAACP to push the petition and movement forward in trying to rename buildings, or at least offer some accountable history that these men participated in and perpetuated anti-Blackness. It’s been really cool to see the work being continued by Black students there now. The BSU is amazing – the new presidency is doing things that I never would have thought of. Since you graduated from BYU, you’ve started the “Black Lives Matter to Christ” Facebook page. How did that get into your brain and off the ground? I’d been doing different organizing things before Black Lives Matter to Christ, especially within the Church. When the Church did the Be One event in 2018 to commemorate the 40th anniversary of lifting the priesthood ban, Elder Gary E. Stevenson really wanted to do something with the Black young single adults to make this experience personal, so he formed a committee and I was on that committee. We planned a really cool event after the Be One broadcast for three of the Apostles to speak directly with Black people. Black Lives Matter to Christ We kept the Be One YSA group going at BYU. We had Black Family Home Evenings (FHE) – Black students were not going to FHEs because they didn’t feel comfortable for various reasons. We had firesides and devotionals for Black students. We had what we called a black-out, which was my absolute favorite thing. Any time one of us spoke in sacrament meeting or taught a lesson at church, all of us would go to their ward and “black-out” their ward, to show that Black people exist in the Church. There would be 30 or 40 Black people going to one ward to support one person giving a talk. Melodie Jackson and Students Taking a Knee at BYU We were doing things and organizing around social justice in the Church. But when I left BYU, I wanted to do something for myself. With COVID happening, and then the world blew up from the deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd, there’s always this yearning from a lot of Black people in the Church to want words of comfort from our leaders and it never comes. It almost never comes. So I thought, since we never get these words, let me just follow the example of the Black LDS Legacy Conference – I don’t know if you know about that. I don’t – please elaborate! They are an amazing group of Black women who have a conference every year at the Washington DC Temple Visitors Center. It’s an academic and cultural conference centering on the experience of Black people. People come and read their research. People come who are doing different cool things in the Church – art, writing, anything of that nature. The people who formed it are my mentors. All these different women that I look up to – Janan Graham-Russell, LaShawn Williams, and others – they were already organizing. They are the ones who came up with the Be One event and the Church leaders took it over, but they were the ones who said we’re going to do something because 40 years is a significant number in the scriptures. Everything I learned about organizing within the Church came from this group of women. That’s awesome that you have so many mentors. Back to Black Lives Matter To Christ… I wanted to do something because Black people need comfort and peace right now, and I think the gospel brings a lot of that. I prayed about it and reached out to a lot of people who I felt were in a lot of pain and probably could find some peace in expressing that pain and building community. They all agreed to do it – we’ve done devotionals twice so far, and it was a really amazing experience. I’m trying to decide if I want to do a devotional every other month or every three months. So we’ll see how it goes. I want to expand that page so much – I think I have to allow other people to participate, but it’s my baby and I don’t want to let it go. But that page could be so amazing, like the letter-writing campaign we had. It was in June (2020) and June seems like two years ago. We did a letter-writing campaign to the Twelve Apostles – I invited Black people to write to them about their experiences in the Church. It was initially intended for just Black people to tell their experiences because I think the Apostles are so far removed from those experiences. But then it turned into white members wanting to tell their experiences and how they’ve seen instances of racism, like with children who were interracially adopted. When we do it again, I feel like picking a specific Apostle and saying we’re all going to send letters by this date. I think doing a targeted campaign like that – telling them why Black lives matter, and why Black lives matter to Christ in this Church – could be a really important thing. How do you see this going forward? The future is to be able to share the experiences and stories of more Black people, so that other Black people can find community, and share the work that Black people are doing because they are doing so many amazing things in this Church! This past devotional, I wanted to do a giveaway but I ran out of time. Melissa Kamba has amazing artwork that is so mind-blowing and I think she’s going to be pivotal in how we imagine Blacks in the Church. Fatimah Salleh’s book, The Book of Mormon for the Least of These, completely changed my life, my theology. It’s the Book of Mormon through a social justice lens, and it’s amazing! So amazing! Her research and her work … for a lot of people in the Church, social justice and the gospel seem like conflicting ideas. It’s totally not! People make you think that they’re conflicting ideas, but they’re not! Some of my friends are doing just really cool things. Melodie Jackson At the end of the day, I’m trying to claim space – this is my church too. But at what point does that become exhausting and is it even worth it? I’m in this constant state of conflict, trying to figure out if I should be here – wait, you should be here because there are so many Black people for you, that fought for you to be here, and are doing so much work to make this a space for you. But I personally think that the Church has to go through a process of atonement because it’s done so much harm to so many people. The Church hasn’t really dealt with this history of anti-Blackness, the theology of anti-Blackness in a way that offers salvation for the Church. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is so beautiful and so liberating and so expansive. I’m working on a poem right now – why do we make God so small? I went to pray one night and I couldn’t even see God because we’ve made Him so small – or Them. Why is it even Him? God is so much bigger than what we’ve conceptualized and theorized God to be. Our culture shrinks God so much, but really, I think our theology allows God to be expansive. We are always talking about preparing our Church for Christ to receive, but are we working on that? We need to be actively trying to allow the Church to be as good as the Church can be. At A Glance Name: Melodie Jackson Age: 25 Location: Vicksburg, MS Occupation: Graduate Student Convert to Church?: 2009 Education: BYU, B.A. (American Studies), University of Maryland (American Studies) PhD (Current) Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: Total Praise Interview Produced by Trina Caudle