As a young woman, Jamillah Ali-Rashada prayed that Allah would let her live to raise children. In return, she promised that she would serve others for the rest of her life. She’s kept that promise by trying to be a vessel for the Spirit and its guidance. When Jamillah joined the LDS Church three years ago, she found her path leading to new and profound avenues for serving God’s children. “I have been purposed and called to this for such a time as this,” Jamillah says.”If that is the work and the service that I am supposed to perform, then it is my Heaven.” You were raised Muslim in America. What was your upbringing like? My childhood was kind of interesting, yet just like normal children. I grew up in San Francisco and we played, we fought. I had brothers that drove me nuts and sisters that I didn’t get along with. I grew up in a very large family. We grew up with a father who worked a lot because we were taught in my world that fathers were the breadwinners, so they took care of the responsibility of providing for the family and my mother stayed at home. I grew up like everybody else basically in the neighborhood, where this is what you do. Education was very strict, very much so! And most of us were athletes, so I ran track and I played volleyball. How did you first encounter the Church? When I first moved to Nevada, I moved to northern Nevada and my very first friend that I met, her name was Carla and she was LDS. She kind of embraced me and helped me along, and when she got married she invited us. Because Reno in that area did not have a temple, she got married civilly first and then they were going to go to Utah to get sealed, so I was at her civil wedding when she got married. Then she moved to Utah and we didn’t get keep in touch. But then throughout, there were other Mormons. Elder Oakleberry, he was a missionary, in the 70’s I studied with him and I was like, “Yeah, right! I am not interested! I am okay.” I was married before, to a Christian pastor, and one of our church members left the church in 1978 right after the priesthood ban was lifted, and went to the LDS Church. I couldn’t understand why she would leave our church and go there. She was African American too, so I was like, “Are you kidding me?” I never thought anything else of it, and then life goes on and I keep running into these Mormons. Then when I moved to Las Vegas, when the temple opened my youngest daughter and I went and she filled out the card for the missionaries to come visit. I yelled at her, “Why would you do that?” Of course the missionaries showed up and so I took the lessons again. I really wasn’t emotionally ready to deal with that. I can tell you in 35 years off and on, I have had Mormons in and out of my life. Eventually, one person who came into my life [Dominique] and I didn’t even know she was Mormon. She and I had done some business together and I had known her for quite a while. One day after my world had come crashing down [after the recession], she invited me to church and I said, “You go to this church?” And she said yes! I said, “How long have you been going to this church?” And she said, “All these years!” And I have been coming ever since. What is interesting is that through all of that nobody had invited me to church. Dominique invited me to church–and she was African American–Dominique invited me and then it was real. Once I came and I started listening and hearing, it was a conviction. There was something different. For me, it took a while but the steps were good because I was more certain of my footing. I knew that this is where I was supposed to be. It had given me a chance to grow. Jamillah Ali-Rashada and Her Husband Rahim And there was getting to the temple! When [my husband] Rahim and I were baptized, our whole focus and purpose was to do those things necessary to earn a recommend. I have a strong testimony of the temple. I take absolutely nothing for granted when it comes to my work and my testimony because it is so profound to me. What sets this apart for me is the temple work, and truly turning the hearts of the children to the father. I have only been in the Church for three years and there is so much to learn. When I renew my covenants with the work that I believe I am called to do, it makes me feel honored to be a part of something much greater than myself. The words can’t truly describe the depth of that growth or the desire for growth in my walk and in my testimony. I love the thought of learning and growth, and it seems to be the part of the Gospel that you hungered after. How do you feel you have been nourished and growing? I believe that in the scriptures there is the letter of the scripture and then there is the spirit of the scripture. I can perform according to the letter, or I can allow the Spirit to perform through me. When I move out of my way and allow the Spirit to take hold, there is so much of a deeper presence and meaning in what it says for me. I believe that the Spirit teaches me; as I learn the words, I know the Spirit will teach me and give me the guidance to perfect me. I don’t have to be all that, I don’t have to be the smartest, the sharpest, the best of whatever, I just have to be true to myself and the scriptures and honor my covenants, and everything else will be handled. That’s where I live on a daily basis. And I live that way better on some days than others. The scriptures and being a member of the Church have given me a guidance and direction to be just that: To just be a vessel. I am going to tell you a story about something that happened to me when I was a young girl. I was always getting sick growing up, and one time I was really sick and they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with me. I was in the middle of appendicitis and I had grown so quickly, they said I was just having growing pains. I was about 13 or 14 years old. But my appendix had burst, so they had to do an emergency appendectomy. In the path of the emergency appendectomy they found that I had some major issues with my reproductive organs, so they took out one of my ovaries and the left the other ovary that was seriously diseased at a young age. They said that I would probably be okay, but I would never have children. So they took me home and I remember lying in bed one night and I was praying—you know, I prayed to Allah—I prayed with a sense of urgency and I prayed to Allah that if He would let me live and have at least one child by the time I was 21, I would do service the rest of my life. Things change, I got better, and life got good, I moved on with my life, everything was cool. And I got pregnant. My first child was born and I was lying in the hospital and I’m breastfeeding and all of a sudden (gasps) I remember! And my mom says, ”What’s the matter?” And I said, ”Oh my gosh,” because all those years I had totally forgotten what I had promised. My oldest daughter was born just before my 21st birthday. Have you tried to fulfill that promise? Absolutely, and more so now and that’s why I preface with that story. Redeeming and the work of the temple fascinates me. I am an ordinance worker, and when I am there it feels like Heaven to me. I have been purposed and called to this for such a time as this. It is my place. It is as though I connect with each person for whom I am helping with the ordinances. I can feel the presence—some stronger than others—and it’s more than just going through the motions. You know how sometimes you’re so used to saying something, it just rolls off your lips because you’ve said it and done it so long? It is never that way. It’s as though each time is the first time. To me it’s important because it’s not about me anymore. It’s about that soul, that being who now has an opportunity to accept and move on. I think that is one of the most precious gifts that I can give to my family and my ancestors: An opportunity to be a part of the Kingdom. If that is the work and the service that I am supposed to perform, then it is my Heaven, it’s a part of my Heaven. Jamillah Ali-Rashada Holding The Book of Mormon As a woman specifically, what do you feel that you have learned about yourself in the Gospel or are learning? I have always known I am limited by my decisions. I grew up with the knowledge that you can do anything you want to do or anything that you put your mind to. In the scriptures when it says ”I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength,” to me that’s a testimony not only to the witness but to anyone. And as a woman, I hold to that role because it’s like sometimes we don’t walk in our strength. To me, being a woman is profound. When I look at the scriptures and things that happen, God chose women to bring forth the Savior. You know, a virgin. He brought Christ through a woman. That’s a powerful place. God thought enough of me as a woman to entrust this with me. Not just me individually, but as a woman. That is very important for us to look at as a model for who we are and who we can become in the eyesight of God. I believe that when God fashioned a woman out of man, he made her equal. We have different roles but she is his equal and his helpmate. So if that is the case, that’s a powerful position and I believe as a woman I am learning to walk in the power and have the power to hold the space, because you could have the title and not be able to honor the position. To me, to honor it means that you work on yourself to be the best that you could ever be and let God do the rest.Any religion, but I’ve noticed it quite a bit with Islam, it’s more than just the religion you go to once a week. It’s very much your lifestyle, and it’s also a culture. So did you feel that you lost some of your cultural heritage in joining the Church, and how have you kept parts of your heritage with you? Well, you never lose it. I will give you an example: because of my experiences of going to Muslim services and participating, I can be perfectly comfortable and content. To be able to be there and know how to serve those who are where I am. I can also go to the temple and serve. I believe that the experiences that I have had have actually broadened my base because I believe that it allows me to be more multi-faceted rather than locked into one way of service. I remember when Paul in the scriptures was teaching the people, and the essence of what he was saying is: You meet people where they are. You can’t go into some place and teach or guide them to truth if you don’t even know who they are. You live the example, so that they have some path to follow. Because of the experiences that I’ve had and Rahim has had, we could walk a different path to guide people to truth. Jamillah Ali-Rashada You mentioned the priesthood ban. Were the historical context and race issues in the Church an obstacle for you? Well, there are still race issues in the church. They haven’t gone away. I accept people like they are. You don’t have to like me, but I’m in the Church and I’m here to stay. So my feeling is the priesthood ban didn’t have any effect on me but it is “evident” in many respects that the LDS church or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a predominantly white congregation. I wanted to be around an environment that was more ethnically and racially balanced. But I don’t have those kinds of issues per se, not like that. So how do you live that now? I am where I am for now. What I bring, it’s important to the Lord. I won’t be put in a box. There is more than one way to be Mormon. Because I have a different racial, ethnic, cultural experience, I don’t think like most of the people at church. Probably not like anybody at the church, not even my husband. And that’s okay because each one of us are individuals and we have our own processes. And because of who we are, we have to be who we are without judgment. I think that’s really important for growth. If all you know is white people, then that’s all you know. You don’t have any experience. If somebody else new comes into your world or your circle, you have absolutely no reference point. If all I ever knew was just black people or just Muslims, then that’s not a reference point and I think it’s about growth. I know that my being in the ward changes the ward. And for good! Absolutely! Because we aren’t white and in fact, culturally, Rahim and I are not even like many black people, and that’s okay too! So the experience is there and it’s good because it’s all about growing. If you don’t have the experience you don’t grow. One of my major pet peeves is Mormons only hang out with Mormons. Where is the testimony in that? It’s easier to be a Mormon when you’re around other Mormons. The key is to still be able to be a Mormon, fully, wherever you are. To me that is the greater testimony. It’s easy for me to wear my garments and my clothes as a Muslim but if I could put on my wraps and stuff and be wherever I am, and still hold the culture and the realness that I was told that I was supposed to have as a woman, then that is the true testimony! I just believe that because that’s where we shine. The scriptures talk all the time about ”Let your light so shine,” and growing up we were always taught that you should live your life so that people would want to be like you, because it attracts when you have joy and peace and contentment; then it is easy to be around people like that. Most of us have not mastered, including me at times, being fully who we are and embracing it, no matter where we are. It is a struggle but that is part of growth. That’s the other thing: I don’t have to be perfect. I just have to be. At A Glance Name: Jamillah Ali-Rashada Location: Las Vegas, Nevada Marital status: Married Children: Four Occupation: Businesswoman Languages Spoken at Home: English Interview by Lydia Defranchi. Photos by John Nelson.

Just when Naomi Watkins thought she was done with school forever, she felt the Lord redirect her path. Now she wants to encourage other women to find that inspiration for themselves. To help with that goal, she founded Aspiring Mormon Women, a non-profit organization intended to support and celebrate the educational and professional aspirations of LDS women. “God does not place limits on us,” Naomi says, “and learning to listen to and follow the Spirit are paramount skills to develop.” Tell us about your background. I spent most of my childhood living in a San Diego beach town, the oldest of two girls. I was blessed to grow up in a home where my goals were valued and encouraged. From a young age, I excelled academically, the typical overachiever. I also competitively swam for 11 years and attribute a lot of my life-learning to my participation in competitive sports. Swimming didn’t come as naturally to me as academics did, so the pool was the place where I learned how to deal with disappointment and to persevere through challenges, how to find strength and motivation from teammates, and how to plan for and achieve tangible goals. I am very grateful for the support and encouragement I received at home. I was taught that God does not place limits on us and that learning to listen to and follow the Spirit are paramount skills to develop. From my conversations with other LDS women, I’ve learned that not all women were raised in homes where their educational and professional dreams were fully supported or even discussed, so the support and encouragement that I once believed to be a given for all is not something I take for granted. Naomi Watkins What inspired you to create Aspiring Mormon Women? After graduating from BYU, I was living in the Phoenix area and working as a middle school English teacher. While teaching, I completed a master’s degree in literacy at Arizona State University. A master’s degree had always been a personal goal, and after graduating with this second degree, I had no plans to further my education. I remember uttering the words, “I’m done with school forever!” on graduation day. But the Lord apparently had different plans for me. I was attending a class at a Stake women’s conference with a friend, and I heard a voice tell me that I needed to earn a PhD. This voice was audible to me, but no one else. I remember glancing around the room to see if any one else had heard. I thought it was odd and shrugged it off, but the voice repeated the same message. I told the voice in my mind that I would pursue a PhD later, like after I had children or when I was older. But the voice was adamant; I was to pursue a PhD now because I wouldn’t have the time to do so later. During lunch at the conference, I told my friend about my experience. It’s not every day that someone describes such an experience, so she surprised me by saying that I should just do it then. I went home and began researching PhD programs, and I started the application process even though it was already late into the admissions season. It was in March of 2005 that I learned I had been accepted at the University of Utah and had received a research and teaching assistantship that would pay for all of my schooling. As I started this process, I knew only a handful of LDS women with PhDs. Most of these women I knew as my professors at BYU. They were great mentors to me; some of them are still mentors to me. However, I really wanted to connect and meet other LDS women who were doing what I was in the process of doing. Even though I felt strongly prompted to pursue a PhD and had supportive family and friends, I still wanted to know that it was okay for a LDS woman to pursue a PhD, that a LDS woman could still want to have a family and an advanced degree and a career. I wanted to be able to ask questions and seek advice and support. Remember that this was 2005, and social networking and technology was not what we have today. But the Lord did provide in-person support for me. If He guided me to a Phd, why wouldn’t He also provide me with support? I visit-taught a woman who was also pursuing a PhD, and I met another LDS woman in my cohort. Both became dear friends who I still consider part of my support network. Despite my own personal support network, however, I still wanted to create a wider, more vast network of LDS women who were pursuing educational and professional goals. So I was inspired to create Aspiring Mormon Women because I wish that I had something like it while in graduate school. Its creation had to sit on the backburner for a few years until I finished my PhD. Will you explain about the actual creation of Aspiring Mormon Women? At some point along my PhD journey, I joined a Facebook group of LDS women academics. This group filled many of the needs and support that I had once sought, and I tabled my ideas about creating a broader network. It was in this online setting that a group member commented about how cool it would be to have a group dedicated to providing a network and support to help LDS women educationally and professionally. Such a community did not yet exist, but it was needed. This was Thanksgiving of 2012. I was eating breakfast at a hotel in Cusco, Peru, and I audibly gasped when I read that comment because it mirrored the thoughts I had for many years. That comment was the catalyst for Aspiring Mormon Women. That group member and I had several subsequent conversations, I asked others to join and collaborate, and seven months later, in June 2013, we launched Aspiring Mormon Women. What is the purpose and focus of Aspiring Mormon Women? Aspiring Mormon Women [AMW] is an official non-profit with the purpose of encouraging, supporting, and celebrating the educational and professional aspirations of LDS women. We have a website that includes personal essays, career days interviews, Young Women activities, podcasts, and informational articles about mentoring and networking, returning to school or the workforce, how to navigate school or one’s career. We have also have a Facebook discussion group, which is where much of the crowdsourcing and real-time support occurs; when people have a need or a question, or want to discuss an issue, that’s where they can go and receive responses from others in the AMW community. We facilitate networking between like-minded women with similar goals. One of the goals of AMW is to empower women to action in their educational and professional spheres. Women receive many mixed messages about what they should be or do. LDS culture adds an additional layer to these mixed messages and expectations, and it’s difficult to wade through these layers alone, even when one feels guided to higher education or a career. We don’t want cultural assumptions to limit women. There is so much yet to be accomplished and achieved, so much more room for growth and experience. I think one of the most difficult and challenging aspects of life is figuring out one’s path based on the Lord’s guidance. I’m still wrestling with and figuring that out myself. Often we don’t even know the possibilities or opportunities that exist until we actually see them, and we’re doing that work at Aspiring Mormon Women. We’re showing LDS women mirrors of themselves and offering them windows into what they can become. You’ve mentioned how you feel that AMW gives voice to a group of women that isn’t always represented. Will you explain that? There is a wide variety of experiences of Mormon women, and with the growth of the Internet, there has been more discussion and support for these wide experiences. Many of the women we meet and talk to at AMW are those who do paid work or who want to pursue more education, but they may feel isolated in their individual wards or stakes. They may be the only mothers in their wards with a career, for example. And while there is a lot of support for mothering, from the pulpit and in local congregations, mothering is not the only thing in life that Mormon women do. I am not saying that family is of lesser importance, but there are also other areas for development. Additionally, there are many Mormon women who are not wives or mothers, who work and have fulfilling careers, and we are working to provide support and a voice to this demographic, too. This group is a significant piece given that a lot of the conversation about working women focuses on working mothers. As Mormon women, many of us may not have been taught skills related to navigating the workplace. I recall that the majority of my Young Women’s activities focused on homemaking skills, and while I do use these skills, working full-time is my reality and the reality of many LDS women. We are simply trying to foster respect for and dialogue about a wide spectrum of life choices. Family and education and career do not have to be either/or propositions. This combination will look different for every woman and will change over time. And that’s okay. Education should be an integral part of a LDS woman’s life plan. The idea that education for women is simply a back-up plan in case of a worst-case scenario needs to be extinguished. How do you want your group to be perceived? I have been asked if Aspiring Mormon Women is a Mormon feminist website. Those asking usually want to know if AMW is a website advocating for women’s ordination or if it’s full of “angry Mormon women.” It’s unfortunate to me that many in the Church associate “feminism” in these ways, since supporting, encouraging, and empowering women to make choices and take advantage of opportunities–the types of things that we do at AMW–are to me what “feminism” is about. But from AMW’s inception, we have strived to make it a place where LDS women who do not identify as “feminists” and those who do can come together and support each other in their educational and professional endeavors regardless of their ideological stances. We also have women representing a spectrum of church activity. It’s incredibly important to me that those who identify with our mission are able to find support and means to accomplish their goals. We have women involved who want to return to school or who are trying to re-enter the workforce. We have women who have thriving careers and young women who are in the midst of their undergraduate educations. I think it’s this diversity of ages and experiences and viewpoints that makes mentoring and networking a success. Naomi Watkins What have been some of your proudest moments working with Aspiring Mormon Women? It’s especially gratifying to hear from women who share that they’ve decided to return to school or who are excited to find other women who are pursuing goals like them. Women share their successes and milestones from the workplace, and it’s great to watch women congratulate each other and really find joy in the success of other women. It’s a bit scary to put something out on the Internet and wonder how people will respond, but we’ve received a lot of positive responses. I also love watching women support women and make connections with women they may not have otherwise met. What’s the future of Aspiring Mormon Women? We’re hosting our first in-real life networking and mentoring event in the Salt Lake area, and we hope to offer similar, smaller opportunities for women in other geographic areas soon. We’re also in the process of getting our 501(c)(3) nonprofit status from the IRS, and we would love to offer a scholarship. Expanding our network of LDS women is also really important to our success. We’re always on the hunt for women to share their stories about their educational and professional paths or assist with informal mentoring. Unfortunately, I have met LDS women who don’t feel that their educational and professional stories are worth sharing because they don’t feel that they’re interesting or successful enough. This self-censoring is incredibly unfortunate to me; it shows that there’s also a real need to encourage LDS women to share these aspects of their lives. At A Glance Name: Naomi Watkins Location: Los Angeles, California Age: 35 Marital status: Single Occupation: Professor Schools Attended: Brigham Young University (B.A.), Arizona State University (M.Ed.), University of Utah (Ph.D.) Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: “Now Let Us Rejoice” On The Web: aspiringmormonwomen.org Interview by Katherine Wilkinson.

EDITOR’S NOTE: This interview is part of a series, “Sisters Speaking Out,” that features Mormon women speaking out on social and political issues. The opinions expressed here represent the speaker, and do not imply endorsement by the Mormon Women Project or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We ask that all readers maintain respect for the views of the interview subject. In her work as a filmmaker, Bianca Morrison Dillard sees storytelling as a way to build community, and a way to help people feel heard and understood. Her views are shaped by what she sees as the essence of the Gospel of Jesus Christ: “Love and inclusion. Everything that is virtuous and lovely and of good report and praiseworthy.” Bianca talks here about honoring the nuance and complexity of individual lives–one of the goals of her current project, the documentary film Far Between, which features personal stories about what it means to be gay and Mormon. What is your career and education background? I just graduated from BYU in Dramaturgy. Dramaturgy incorporates the critical and historical aspects of theater, but also requires you to be in the rehearsal room working with directors and writers and a whole team of other people. For example, at BYU we got together in a class with actors, dramaturgs, directors, and playwrights. We all sat in a room and talked about the play and read it together. The playwright would come in with new scenes, and we would also improvise new scenes. It is like a writing workshop. It’s an opportunity for writers to see their script in practice because it looks a lot different on the page than it does on stage. It’s a way to bridge that gap between what’s on the page and a fully mounted production. As a dramaturg, part of my job is to be an informed set of eyes and ears for the writer. I’m there to be a sounding board for them to bounce ideas off of and see what sticks. I’m also there to throw out my ideas so that they can say, “No, that’s a terrible idea. I am going to do this other thing.” I work largely in film these days and found that my dramaturgical training helped me cross over to film, and content development and research, as well as film production. It seems like you often use film and theater as a way to speak about important issues. Because you’re LDS, speaking to issues specifically within an LDS context seems like a priority for you. For sure. When I came to BYU, I found that there were a lot of people who felt like they didn’t fit into the community there. It was a little mind-blowing, because I thought BYU was supposed to be the Mormon Mecca–the place where all Mormons should feel like they belong. But nobody in my sphere at BYU felt like they fit in. Instead, they all felt like they were outsiders in some respect. Storytelling is a big reason that I’m interested in theater and film–it has the capacity to help people feel like they are heard and understood. So I felt like I needed to be involved in helping people feel like they could be a part of the community, and not feel like they were the only ones who didn’t fit in. You’re currently co-producing a documentary film called ‘Far Between, which addresses the themes of storytelling and inclusion through conversations with LGBT/SSA [lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender/same-sex attracted] Mormons. How did you get involved with this project? Back in 2010, I was working with Kendall Wilcox at BYUtv. He told me he wanted to create a film about LGBT/SSA Mormons. LGBT issues were heavily on my mind at that time, and I was really trying to figure it all out. I didn’t feel totally comfortable with some of the actions and statements made by Church members and leaders about LGBT issues. It felt very spiritually upsetting to me. It was hard. It rocked my world. It was the first time that I had seen something that felt so clearly incongruous with my experience and what I understood about the world. This is something that Kendall and I had had conversations about. Those events were the impetus for Kendall to tell the stories of LGBT Mormons. So as Kendall and I were having these conversations together, he asked me to help him make the film, Far Between. I felt like it was the right time because I had to address my own questions as well. Why did LGBT issues specifically resonate with you? Well, I work in the theater community and there are a lot of LGBT people in the theater world. I didn’t have any close friends or family members [who were gay], but that was something that was just on my mind and close to my heart. It just felt like the Spirit prompting me to think about these things. What are the goals of the ‘Far Between' film and website? We use interviews to tell personal stories about what it means to be gay and Mormon. We’ve also interviewed people who are transgender, and a woman who gave a lovely interview about being asexual. We’re sharing stories from a wide spectrum of sexual orientation and gender identity. We want to change the way that we talk about this issue. We want to help inform the conversation, so that people know there are a number of different perspectives. We’ve interviewed people who say they’ve left their religion and feel happier. We’ve interviewed people who are making a relationship with a member of the opposite sex work and feel happier for it, and others who wouldn’t even categorize their attractions as an “orientation” in the first place. We’ve also interviewed people who are attending Church with their same-sex partners and feel like that’s the best path for them. We want to honor these different choices while acknowledging that every choice can be complicated and tricky. And we want to make a space in the gay community for religious people. We also want to show that maybe there aren’t prescribed paths that will work for everyone. They do work for some people, but they don’t work for everyone. The world is full of nuance. We wanted to show the nuance. Bianca Morrison Dillard with Her Husband What are some of the rewards and challenges that you’ve experienced in creating ‘Far Between' ? You know, I sit in my editing bay at my computer, checking my emails, and sometimes I don’t know if the work and struggle to make this film a reality is worth it. But then someone comes up to me and says, “I didn’t kill myself because of a Far Between video you posted.” That’s when I know: this is what I should be doing. We are making a difference. Some people we’ve interviewed have been hesitant in telling their stories for the camera. There has been some hesitancy to be open and clear about their choices because of stigmas within the LGBT community or the LDS community. That’s been a challenge because we want to honor everyone’s experience. We get a lot of antagonism, because we are working really hard to take a middle path, and show everyone’s story side by side. People are so used to polarization—“Put this poster child on one side,” or “Don’t put my story next to that person’s story. They’re unhealthy,” or sinful or crazy, or whatever sort of word you use to describe someone that you don’t agree with. Some people say we’re not going far enough in the activist realm. They think we should be pushing for doctrinal change or political change. Other people feel like we’ve gone too far because we are presenting stories of people who left the Church. So we get pushback from both sides. For the Far Between project, it is important that we don’t say, “This person has the answer because…” or “This person clearly doesn’t know what’s best for themselves because of this…” If we’ve got an agenda, it’s to help everyone get along and improve the way we talk to each other—not to tell anyone what they should think, feel, believe, or what choices they should make. We just want people to be able to talk to each other better. It is difficult to occupy that middle ground. Why do you think it is important to remain neutral in your approach to the film? I think most of us feel like we have to take a stand on moral issues; that we have to know all of the answers and we have to put a flagpole in our lawns that says, “This is what we stand for!” In reality, I don’t know that life is black and white. That has not been my experience. If we are going to stand for anything it is in asking people to listen to one another, respect one another, and love each other. We don’t have to agree all of the time, but we can say, “I get where you are coming from. I can see why you would make that decision. I don’t think you are stupid or crazy.” At the end of the day, if we don’t love each other and don’t know how to listen and ask questions and honor each others’ experiences, then what actual progress have we made? Do you feel like you have been transformed personally at all since starting the project? I don’t feel like I have had a grand revelation, but I feel like I’m more comfortable with the questions that I have. I feel like they are good questions. I feel a greater capacity to listen to stories that make me go, “Ah! I don’t know about that!” or maybe, “I am uncomfortable with that,” or, “That doesn’t ring true with my experience.” Sometimes we say flippant comments like, “I don’t how anyone could do this or think this.” And I feel like that’s because we probably haven’t asked that person. Because when we ask, we can go, “Oh, yeah!” If we listen to other people’s stories, we can say, “Yeah, I still don’t agree with you, necessarily, but I get where you are coming from.” I think that’s so valuable because people do things for good reasons. I feel like it’s made me engage in my local community more. Do you mean your local Mormon community? Did you find strength in engaging? Yes! I was reminded by how lovely our local community is, and how I can sit in a Relief Society room, and I know who in this room I agree with politically and who I agree with on doctrinal issues–but it doesn’t matter. And I know that and I still love them–the people that I agree with and the people that I don’t agree with. Bianca Morrison Dillard with Her Husband Do you feel like your relationships with God or the Church have gotten more nuanced? I feel like this project has also strengthened my understanding of what the Gospel is at its core, for me. I think Christ’s message was inclusive. He went out of his way to include. He was loving and a pacifist. These core teachings of Jesus Christ’s ministry are what the Gospel is about and what Mormonism is about, for me. It’s what makes me excited about the Gospel and about the future of our Church and about being a member. I have a lot of questions, but I feel more comfortable and confident sitting with those questions. I don’t feel like I have to necessarily put them on a shelf and not think about them anymore. I can hold them and say, “This is my faith and these are my doubts, and it’s all here together, and I feel confident in the core principles that I am going to follow.” Another reason that I feel so excited about Mormonism is that Mormonism is sort of like the wish for more light, truth, and knowledge. Like the wish for more wishes! We believe in light, truth, and knowledge wherever it is found. It’s all a part of the Gospel, and I find that really exciting. I think of Mormonism like this image of the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, rolling forward to envelop the Earth. I feel like that is the Gospel of Christ. And we are just rolling along, picking up ideas and beautiful light and knowledge as we go. That’s what Mormonism is to me. Love and inclusion. All the people, all the ideas, and everything that is virtuous and lovely and of good report and praiseworthy. And then everything else will fall away. At A Glance Name: Bianca Morrison Dillard Location: Provo, UT Age: 29 Marital status: Married 5 years Occupation: Filmmaker and theater practitioner Schools Attended: Brigham Young University, Boise State University Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: “Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel” and “Be Still, My Soul” On the Web: Far Between Interview by Krisanne Hastings

McArthur Krishna did not expect to be where she is. And the path she took to get there was an unusual one. McArthur lives in rural India, an overnight train ride from the nearest LDS Church congregation and a world apart from her former life in Washington DC. But her unique experiences have confirmed to her the importance of maintaining her personal relationship with God and trusting in His ways. The result, she says, is an abundant life filled with vibrancy and delight. McArthur is a co-author of the book, Girls Who Choose God: Stories of Courageous Women from the Bible. Writing about women who choose to follow God is one way that McArthur feels actively connected to her faith. You uprooted from your established life in Washington, DC, to move to India. How did that come about? A few years ago, I was moving through life. I lived in DC and ran my own company. I was happy. I was working on my profession. I was even going to singles conferences. I was putting in the effort to date but the relationships never felt quite right. And that was okay. I found that life was abundant. I spent a lot of time traveling and river rafting—two things I love. I had a rich community, a fabulous ward, and close relations with my family. I was loved and needed. Some nephews that lived close were my true loves; I had and have great joy in being an aunt. My mom actually teased me that I was “too happy”—that I had no motivation to get married. And she was partially right. There was no way I was going to get married to just be married. I had dated some amazing, quality men, and so I had a very high bar for what I knew was possible. People would tell me to not be picky and I would laugh. Because, uh, isn’t your eternal partner the exact thing you should be picky about? However, I knew I had to be reasonable. A ridiculous list of specific things about hair color and piano player and whatnot seemed to be out of line to me. But I would be selective and choose a partner I could be equally yoked as an eternal companion with. So, I just lived my life with the priorities that I had set and figured if I were happily becoming the best me, then someone would someday be the right fit for that girl. Then I happened to attend a TED conference in India and met a man who lives in rural India. We spent three hours talking about our philosophies on how to live an abundant life—how to both dig roots to contribute deeply but also have the flexibility to explore the big ol’ grand world God gave us. He was telling me about his village and I got this message from the universe imprinted on my brain like a running marquee, “This is going to be your life.” McArthur Krishna and Her Husband, Photo by Jed Wells I don’t often get messages like that from the universe. So I was stunned, and then immediately asked the universe which “this” it was referring to—India? This place? This foundation? This man? There was no follow-up clarification, and so I was left just wondering. But it was clear: the man just didn’t make any sense. I spent two years thinking that it made no sense. When I relied on my own understanding and logic, it didn’t make sense. His current situation was nothing I would have signed up for. But I prayed about it and knew I was on the right path. I would chicken out and bail on the path and then miracles would bring me back. The most profound spiritual experience I’ve ever had was when I prayed about whether I should marry him. It’s the clearest answer I’ve ever received. Sheer overwhelming light that left me gasping. Yet, this process and answer felt like a potentially very slippery slope. Dangerous, even. I needed to make sure I could really trust my relationship with God, because I was being told that I should marry someone who was 1) not the person that I was always told I should marry, and 2) under circumstances that seemed insane to an outside observer. It even felt insane to me! I had some serious blessings along the way in friends and family. In fact, my congregation was incredibly supportive. It is one of the aspects that made this process easier. But then I was visiting a ward and I had one woman in the Church say to me: “That’s fine for you, but I could never settle for a nonmember.” I flinched and the conversation moved on. And then I thought, “Wait! That is not okay to let that perspective stand.” So I circled back around and explained my philosophy: The goal of life is to become god-like, and the way we do that is by following God. And I absolutely followed God in choosing whom to marry. It was the craziest decision of my life, but it was clear that I did not settle. Following God’s path designed for me is not settling. This is true for me and everyone! McArthur Krishna, Photo by Amber McArthur At one point, I was angry with God about all the mess this path involved. I prayed—I am not always very humble in my prayers, but I have always figured God knew I wasn’t feeling humble anyway, so I might as well be authentic—and demanded, “Why did you have to do it this way? I’ve tried to live a good life and here I am in the midst of all this ugliness? Why not just sort all the mess ahead of time and let me marry him with ease?” What I got back was a very clear feeling of peace and this profound statement: “If I had done it the easy way, you would have just gotten him. The way I’ve done it, you get him and a relationship with me.” That was a humbling moment. For me that was a huge realization. For two years, when I was trying to figure out how to walk this path with this man, the only way I could keep myself balanced and even-keeled was by relying on God. I was fasting once a week, I was desperate, and I was compelled to be humble. It still made no sense. But God gave me the guts to go through with it. That has guided so much of my life now. I’ve learned that when you’re faced with something that doesn’t feel fair, it’s an opportunity to choose to strengthen your relationship with God. And I learned about seeing with God’s view. I was reading a talk by President Monson and he was talking about people making choices. He said when God needed the best missionary effort he didn’t recruit from among his advocates but from his adversaries—and Saul got the opportunity to become Paul. We see the world so much as it is now rather than as God sees: what is possible. For me to walk this path forced me to try to trust God’s vision of what could be, rather than what is. And, for me, God’s ways are abundant. I thought I had to be reasonable about what I would get in a life partner—and what I got delivered was stunning, jaw-dropping abundance. Not easy, but abundant. He’s amazing! How do you worship in India? Do you attend a ward or branch? I live in rural India and there is no congregation nearby. I have to take a plane or overnight train ride to the nearest ward, so if I’m lucky, I attend a ward about once per month. I have no visiting teachers or home teachers or Relief Society. When my mom came to visit she asked me, “How do you hold onto your God?” For my mom, who grew up in rural Utah where her life revolved around Church structure, she couldn’t fathom it. Initially, I felt a little guilty that my life now doesn’t give me more of the structure that I was raised to participate in. And then I paused and said, “No, mom, that’s the point: I only have God to hold on to. My spiritual life is God. None of the trappings, none of the fluff. I’ve just got God…and the internet.” Choosing God in the Capitol Hill Ward (in Washington, DC) meant that I was a Seminary teacher and a Young Women’s president and a Gospel Doctrine teacher and a visiting teacher. But those things aren’t options here, so choosing God has to take on a very different format. And that’s okay. It’s a daily choice. Nobody here cares if I say my prayers and read my scriptures and pay my tithing. It is absolutely up to me whether I do those things. What I find is that instead of asking myself if I have done the checklist, I have to ask, “How is my relationship with God?” and then I work on that. And then when I get the gift—yes, gift—of going to Church, then I am deeply appreciative of getting to feast on light with a community. McArthur Krishna What is your life like in India? You have left your profession, so what do you focus on now? In Washington DC your life is defined by what you do. It’s everyone’s first question, and I use to have an easy answer. Now I steal a friend’s term and say I am a “Life Enhancer.” For me, I have had to gain comfort that my worth is not a paycheck or a specific title. I split my time among a lot of roles—I am using the professional skills I’ve developed to help the family businesses, working in a foundation to help village women develop employable skills and revitalize heritage crafts, trying to raise kids, designing/creating, and now writing kids’ books. Oh yeah, and hatching a lot of schemes for sheer delight. Life is very, very busy and almost nothing like my old life—but ridiculously abundant! In the last while, I’ve really been focused on writing—along with Bethany Brady Spalding—the book Girls Who Choose God and working to get it published and promoted. What was the catalyst for writing Girls Who Choose God? Years ago, Bethany’s daughter—then three years old—was reading her cartoon scripture book of prophets, warriors, and heroes and she asked, “Mom, where are the girls?” Bethany and I talked about this and thought we could write a children’s book that told the stories of the women in the scriptures and in Church history. We wanted to start the book right away, but Bethany was living in Mumbai and I was living in DC at the time. Then Bethany moved to Chicago and gave birth to another baby. I was transitioning from my job and moving to India. We had trouble fitting a book around all those life events. It took us three years of working on it occasionally. We’d have a meeting every few months to share ideas. Bethany came up with the concept of basing the book around choice and choosing God. We sent out emails to friends to get their feedback about our ideas. It wasn’t even slow and steady work; it was slow and erratic! But then Bethany settled in Virginia and I was getting settled in India, so the stars finally aligned in a way that we could move this forward. And then it felt fortuitous, because there’s such a growing fervor right now in the Church around women’s issues. As Bethany and I started writing the book, I thought, “It’s so interesting that I’m writing this book at a point when I don’t have much Church structure around me.” Working on this book was one way that I could remain connected to my testimony and my beliefs. I needed to be in tune. McArthur Krishna's Book Girls Who Choose God It’s so exciting that Deseret Book is publishing Girls Who Choose God. How did that come about? From the beginning, we wanted Deseret Book to publish it. We wanted the concept of women being spiritual peers to be mainstream. I hope that the audience for the book is girls and boys. We give little girls books about Abraham and Joseph Smith and Nephi and warriors and heroes, so why not give little boys books about women who have made deliberate decisions to follow God? We had already asked the artist, Kathy Peterson, to be on board with us. She had started painting before we even had a contract, even with no guarantee that she’d get reimbursed. So we approached Deseret Book with Kathy’s painting of Eve in hand. This is not typically how you do it in publishing. Usually, the publisher assigns you an artist to illustrate. We were able to show them what we envisioned—how beautiful and noble and powerful these women were—and Deseret Book realized there wasn’t anything else like this on the market. The great reward now is that the LDS Church has acquired eleven of the paintings from the book. They are hanging in the Conference Center for a year. Obviously this has been a great outcome for Kathy’s leap of faith with us! Originally, we were proposing a single book on women in the scriptures—Bible, Book of Mormon, and Church history all combined—but Deseret Book said they wanted to break it into a series. So this first book focuses on women in the Bible, right? Are you already working on the next books in the series? The first book has to be a commercial success in order to continue with the series, so we’re doing everything we can think of to spread the word about the book in the hopes that many people will buy a copy. Or several copies! Or even just spread the word! We can shamelessly plug for people to buy the book as we are passionate about the cause, of course, but we are also donating all the authors’ proceeds to Interweave Solutions, an NGO that works with LDS women around the world to develop education and entrepreneurial skills. Bethany knows the co-founder and we think our donation will be used as effectively as possible. But, yes, we are working on both a Book of Mormon and the beginnings of a Church history volume. As I think about the Book of Mormon, I don’t recall many women. Who will you write about if you get to do this next book in the series? We used to think there weren’t enough women in the Book of Mormon to fill a book, but when I read and researched the Book of Mormon really thoroughly, specifically looking for women, I found over a hundred instances when women are mentioned—even though they’re not often mentioned by name. Our books—including the current Girls Who Choose God Bible stories—have both named and unnamed women. Even if women aren’t named, it’s important to understand that they were active participants. For example, in the Book of Mormon, there were women being baptized at the Waters of Mormon and pitching their tent to listen to King Benjamin speak. There are the mothers of the Stripling Warriors, and the Nephite daughters who pled with the Lamanites for the lives of their families. There are so many women who are active participants in their faith. The whole process of writing this book has reinforced what my life has taught me in the last few years: that there are numerous ways to choose God. How you do it is not that important—in terms of location, occupation, marital status, et cetera. There is not a cookie-cutter shape to how we should each choose God in our own lives. It can be a vibrant kaleidoscope of solid options. But making that choice—choosing God—is vital. For me, I am clear that the wild ride I am on is God’s path. And it is both much more abundant and insane than I ever imagined. At A Glance Name: McArthur Krishna Location: Faizabad, India Age: 40 Marital status: Married Children: 2+ Occupation: Life Enhancer Schools Attended: Brigham Young University (twice around!) Languages Spoken at Home: Hindi, English, and trash talk Favorite Hymn: “How Great Thou Art” On The Web: Girls Who Choose God and McArthurKrishna.com Interview by Barbara Christiansen.

Bethany Brady Spalding takes her knack for dissatisfaction and turns it into life-giving action. Whether she’s planting gardens for at-risk children, directing community health programs, or sharing scripture stories with her own daughters, Bethany tries to build positivity and partnership. Bethany is a co-author of the book, Girls Who Choose God: Stories of Courageous Women from the Bible. She believes that telling women’s stories is vital for our spiritual health. You’ve worked in the slums of India, created programs to improve health and education in the USA and South Africa, written a children’s book about courageous women. What’s the link between these things? There are so many things I don’t like about the way the world is: there is too much conflict and violence; there are too many girls that don’t get to go to school; there are too many families that don’t have access to nourishing food; and on and on and on. I’ve always been good (maybe too good) at criticizing things I don’t like. I’m quite a skilled complainer. But I’ve realized along life’s journey that too much criticism and complaining is soul-crushing. And it’s lousy being stuck in an angry, resentful, cynical place. So instead, I’ve tried to use my knack for criticism and complaining as a springboard to action. It’s easy to complain; it is much more challenging—but also more life-giving—to do something to solve problems. Using creativity and compassion, I’ve had a lot of fun trying to change the world around me into a better place. I like to think of myself as a change-maker. With all that you want to change, how do you decide where to focus your “change-maker” energies? I feel really strongly about working in whatever community I live in. If that’s Mumbai [India], then I want to engage there, and if it’s Richmond [Virginia], I want to be here. I want to be on the ground, making an impact where I live and where I’m invested. I used to think of myself as loving international work, but as I’ve gotten older I’ve started to think that the biggest impact we can make is where we are. I love community work and community development. Wherever I am is where I want to focus my efforts. Bethany Brady Spalding Let’s talk about the two big issues you’ve been working on lately—first, nutrition. When we moved here to Richmond two years ago, we chose to live near a very diverse school with over 40 countries represented. Our oldest child started kindergarten and I quickly noticed that good nutrition is such a challenging issue. Many students don’t have access to healthy food at home and the school was serving exorbitant amounts of highly processed food. I was troubled not only by the impact it had on individual children’s health, but also how it impacted the collective learning environment. How could our children focus and learn and thrive while eating so much junk? We’d never tolerate using inferior materials to construct a building, yet we tolerate building children with junk food. But instead of just complaining and making fast enemies with the school lunch ladies, the principal, and the candy-loving teachers, I tried a creative approach. I made a presentation to the PTA board about starting a wellness movement at our school called “Growing Minds,” and it became the school theme. We’ve built an enormous school garden, a farmer teaches bi-weekly food and nutrition classes to all 600 students, and we’ve made huge progress on getting our students and teachers to think about healthy food. It has been fun to see the shift in the school—towards wellness and nutrition. I felt so alive doing this volunteer work at our family’s school and then an opportunity presented itself for me to do similar work professionally. I was asked to lead a regional coalition of community partners working together to address childhood obesity in our area. Richmond has very high levels of poverty and malnutrition, and some of the highest obesity rates in the nation. In the past two years, we have started programs in schools, community centers, churches, public housing sites, health clinics, grocery stores, farmers markets, day care centers, and other venues to improve access to and enjoyment of healthy food. Bethany Brady Spalding A couple of the programs that I run are called Food Explorers and the Prescription Produce Program. Food Explorers is a five-week course that inspires kids ages 10 to 15 to become more savvy consumers of food. We get them investigating important food issues, like the impact of sugar-sweetened beverages and fast food marketing, and we teach them how to make easy, nourishing snacks and meals. We partner with organizations like the YMCA and Boys & Girls Clubs to deliver the program. The Prescription Produce Program is based in public housing sites around the city and targets families at risk for diet-related diseases. We partner with health clinics to help patients understand food as medicine. A nurse practitioner writes participants a prescription for fresh produce. A local farm sets up a farm stall right outside of the clinic and “fills the prescription.” We do demonstrations and cooking classes to teach families culturally acceptable ways to use the produce. After twelve weeks of consuming more fruits and vegetables, families often see a significant improvement in their health. As a Mormon, food is deeply spiritual to me—it links us to the earth, to each other, to our heritage, and to our faith. It is the building blocks of our bodies; it sustains life. So much of our happiness is tied up in food, and it significantly impacts our physical, emotional, and spiritual health. Christ fed His followers. I believe that empowering families to eat more nourishing food will feed a life more full of joy. It seems like partnerships are so critical to success here. What is your approach to building partnerships? I studied public health, which at its core is identifying problems of well-being and bringing together partners to address those problems. I feel passionate about building partnerships. We can’t create change on our own. Our best work is when we partner with like-minded organizations and people to join forces and work together. Our coalition in Richmond includes grocery stores, farmers, our local food bank, school districts, universities, government agencies, nonprofit organizations, health clinics, and hospital systems. We bring them all to the table to come up with initiatives to improve health and nutrition. Bethany Brady Spalding's Book Girls Who Choose God Tell us about another of your “change-maker” efforts: the book you just co-wrote,Girls Who Choose God. One of my favorite parts of Mormonism is its rich feminine theology: an understanding of a Heavenly Mother; the knowledge that Eve’s choice in the garden of Eden was deliberate and courageous; the many ways in which Christ championed and elevated women. But as a mother to three Primary-age girls, it has been difficult that in the Church—my faith community wherever I have lived—there are so few stories, songs, and role-plays about women and girls. My daughters, as young as they are, feel that acutely. My oldest daughter, Simone, was only three years old when she asked the question while reading scripture stories, “But mom, where are the girls?” It struck me that she was already noticing that she wasn’t being represented in those stories. I told my friend McArthur about this, and we started brainstorming about a book highlighting bold women from the scriptures and Church history. It’s another example of how partnership works, because I was raising young girls but McArthur is such a clever storyteller! It has been a grand journey creating the book and watching it come to life. I have been inspired by Deborah the prophetess, Miriam the brave sister, and the Generous Widow. I’m excited to read these stories to my girls, but even more excited to teach them that they too can see a problem and do something to solve it. My absolute favorite story in the book—which I had never heard before writing it—is Mahlah and her sisters. These five young girls find themselves affected by an unjust law and approach Moses about the need to change it. God tells Moses that the girls are right and their efforts are rewarded with a new law that is fair to women and girls. In the spirit of Mahlah and her sisters, I’ve started sharing the book with Primary presidents and Bishops, encouraging them to use more stories about women in our Church services. I believe that telling more women’s stories is imperative for our collective spiritual health. We are elated that the Church has bought much of the artwork, and it is currently on display in the Conference Center. We hope that the book and its beautiful art will be enjoyed by many girls and boys, both young and old, and that we will all realize that there are a plethora of courageous, powerful, deeply spiritual, heroic women in our faith that we should celebrate and learn from. I have three goals for the book, which I admit are a bit of a stretch. But that’s how change-making begins, right? First, that the book will provide strong role models to girls and illustrate that they can be devoted mothers as well as judges, generals, social justice advocates, and many other roles to be a force for good. The second goal is that girls and boys will consider themselves to be spiritual equals, which will lead to more equal partnerships between men and women. The third is that we as a people will grow more comfortable speaking about bold, powerful, spiritual women. And that will eventually lead us to be more comfortable discussing our ultimate feminine role model, Heavenly Mother. It’s impressive how you approached issues from a positive angle. If you really want to make change, you don’t want to alienate people. I try to be inclusive, find common ground, and recognize the contributions that people can make. Change is slow that way, but I think it’s deeper and more lasting when you approach it in a positive, inclusive, hopeful way. Bethany Brady Spalding and Her Daughters You’ve said that the changes you work for are very important, but they’re not an endpoint. My husband, Andy, and I spend a lot of time talking to our girls about complicated social issues. Despite their very young ages, we have vibrant dinner discussions about politics, ethics, and current affairs. We debate problems and brainstorm solutions to them. We remind them that Christ was a change-maker and encourage them to be anxiously engaged in a good cause. Most of all, I want my daughters to see that they too can be change-makers. That they don’t have to accept the world the way it is—that they are powerful, and that their concerns and ideas matter. That is the legacy I want to leave. At A Glance Name: Bethany Brady Spalding Location: Richmond, Virginia, USA Age: 40 Marital status: Married 9 years Children: Three girls (ages 7, 5, and 3) Occupation: Lover, mother, community organizer, and public health advocate Schools Attended: Brigham Young University, University of London Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymns: “Know This, That Every Soul is Free” and “On This Day of Joy and Gladness” On The Web: Girls Who Choose God and Fit4Kids Interview by Barbara Christiansen.

Editor’s Note: In February 2014, general Young Women president Bonnie Oscarson announced nine new members to the Young Women General Board. This interview is the first in a series of interviews with those nine women, who are located around the world and represent a broad cross section of the Church’s female population today. Young Women General Board member Janet Nelson raised four children in New York City. And while she was doing that, she was chipping away at a Master’s degree in Mathematics and periodically teaching high school math. In 2012, after 20 years of classwork, Janet received her graduate degree. Janet feels her extensive experience with urban high school students gives her unique perspective into the realities of being a teenager today, and despite her city life, her love for camping and the outdoors makes her the perfect chairwoman of the general Young Women’s Camp Committee. Would you tell me about your upbringing, and how your family influenced who you are today? My dad was a professor at the University of Utah, but his job took him to Europe and we tried to go with him as often as possible. Before I graduated from high school we had lived in Germany three times, for about nine months or a year at a time. We would go to Germany, and then come home to Salt Lake City and then go back. Janet Nelson I was the sixth of seven children. My dad was a manager. He managed our family. We always had a lot of jobs and job charts. If he had had Excel, it would have been great. We had weekly jobs, dinner jobs, and dishwashing, and then Saturdays were family time. We had property in Grantsville and we would go out and work on the fences, and go to the cabin in Lamb’s Canyon, and work on the cabin. One time my dad said, “Janet, you’re the only 16-year-old girl who knows how to put up a combination wire fence.” And I said, “Dad, there are no 16-year-old boys who care about that.” But that was what our family did. We learned to work and that was the fun. Tell me more about living in Germany. Did you go to school when you were living there? I did. The first time we were there it was just in the summer. Then the second time I was in 7th grade and I went to a German school with my brother and sister in Wiesbaden. We kind of split our time between the German ward and the American ward, because the German ward didn’t have any youth. So we went to Mutual in the American ward and actually my first Young Women experience was in Germany. In my Salt Lake ward, there were at least fifteen girls my age in my ward, but over there, there were maybe two. So it was a completely different experience and I got a lot of personal attention. Then, when I was a sophomore, we went back to Europe for nine months, to Stuttgart, Munich and Spain. I was home schooled that time so we were going to museums all the time. My dad taught us to enlarge photos, develop film and go to the photo lab. Because he had military privileges, we did that on the air base. My parents really took advantage of our living there. And then I spent a summer with a Spanish family in Spain. My parents just dropped us off and we spent six weeks with them. I felt really at home in Germany. As a matter of fact, later when my husband and I went back with our family to live in Germany, he asked me, “How do you feel?” I said, “I feel like I just came home.” I felt really comfortable there, it was another home to me. Did you have any goals for yourself when you were young? You will recognize my age by this: so, my goals were to graduate from college with a marketable job, put my husband through graduate school and start a family. I can honestly say that’s really what I had in mind. My dad said everybody has to go through those lean graduate years and that is part of life. So that is just what I thought you did. I met my husband in college, we married right after I graduated, and then I taught school high school math all the time he was in law school. That goes back to my goal of getting a marketable job: female math teachers in the 1980s were all the rage, so I knew I would be able to get a job as a high school math teacher. It sounds like your dad had a huge influence on you. Did he expect you to eventually give up the marketable job to have a family? My mom is a painter. She raised seven children but she never had a job outside the home. My dad always made sure she had time to paint and she was quite prolific and has some really beautiful paintings. Because of her, I always had in my mind that I should have something that I like to do. But I did think the purpose of a job was in case I needed to provide for my family, and there wasn’t any push to get a graduate degree because in our family it was the boys who were expected to do that. It was very generational. But all seven of us graduated from college and it was never said and I don’t know how those things get translated, but we all just knew we were supposed to go to college. Janet Nelson So I just thought, I will go to school, work for a while and then have my kids. I don’t really think I got much past that thought process. But then, in 1984, Jeff was looking for a job and he had an offer in New York. We just felt like this was the place that we were supposed to be. Our family thought we were crazy. You know, New York in those years was pretty rough. Everybody had a mugger story. But we just said to ourselves, “If we hate it we can come home but if we don’t go now we will never leave Salt Lake.” Jeff had served his mission in Germany and went to school in Germany for a year, so I think we both just felt like there was more that we wanted to have in our lives. Living in Germany really prepared me for life in New York. People in Germany didn’t have huge cars and they didn’t have big homes and they ride public transportation… so coming to New York, all of that was natural to me. We didn’t wake up every day and say, “Should we stay here or should we move?” But when those junctions came up in our lives, we just always felt like we were where we needed to be. And things would open up for us… In 2000, Jeff and I moved our whole family to Germany for three years. He works for a German bank so we could do that. My oldest daughter was a sophomore in high school, and my youngest was just starting first grade. What year did you move into this brownstone? 1994. Getting into this house was also a blessing. I was seven months pregnant with Sam and I had three kids already and we lived in about an 800 square foot apartment. Had you come immediately to Brooklyn when you moved to New York City? Yes, we were always in Brooklyn. We were just around the corner from where we are now. We felt like the hand of the Lord opened it up for us to acquire our home. When we got it, we both felt like there is a stewardship with owning this house. I feel like it’s been, in part, a home for the Church here in Brooklyn. We’ve been able to have so many church-related events here. I think what I also learned was that we were meant to stay. We have been able to have so many General Authorities in our home to have dinner and to sleep here when they’ve come on assignment. That has been a real blessing to our family. It’s an amazing space to have in New York City. It’s kind of embarrassing sometimes when we realized what other people have and now it’s only the two of us. But it has been such a blessing. For example, during our last Stake Conference, I think we had 31 people here. We put these long table here in the parlor. We put the kids downstairs and we had everybody else up here. It’s great! When Elder Jensen came a couple of years ago for a special conference, he said, “You know it’s been a long time since I slept in a bunk bed.” But it has been a blessing to have this home. For me, when we first moved to New York, my eyes were opened. There were so many opportunities, but I really was afraid to teach school because I thought I would probably get killed. But that was my Utah thinking, and eventually I decided to go back to school so I could teach here. I first enrolled in a non-degree computing program at Columbia. Then I got involved at Hunter College as well. I met really great people at both Columbia and Hunter. That was the neatest thing about moving here: to immediately get to know and gain trust of people who were not Mormons who just were really good to me. I remember one interview I had for a teaching position at Hunter. I was pregnant. I sat there with my purse on my lap because I thought, “This woman will never hire me because I am due in December when exams are…” In Utah at that time, a pregnant woman would never have gotten the job so I was trying to hide. But she asked me, “When is your baby due? We will cover your classes when your baby’s born.” She hired me and we are still good friends all these years later. I had so many teachers and colleagues at that time who were so good to me. So I worked on my Master’s and taught classes at Hunter High School, and then decided to stay home for a while after my second child. After my third child was born, I went back into my program. I signed up for a class each semester. There were lots of doubts along the way, lots of breaks, but I’ve been able to do a little at a time. I started my program in 1984 and I graduated in December of 2012. Oh wow! Yep I did! I just kept going for 20 years. I set that goal to get that Master’s. All the time that I had those kids I knew that I was going to go back. Sometimes I would draw little charts and think, “When this child is in this grade I can go back for another class…” So you had contacts and mentors at both Columbia and Hunter that really fostered you along and helped you? Yeah! There were some really good people that I kept in touch with. And so I’ve been teaching math at Hunter High School, a gifted and talented school in Manhattan, for the past several years. The way I got my job at one of the best high schools in the city after being home with kids for 23 years is really miraculous. It was so obvious to me that the Lord had a hand in this. I really think the school benefited because I brought something as a mother; I am a pretty upbeat person and I think I brought a cheerfulness to the department. I have to say, I have always tried to squeeze in the art aspect of Math that the school typically doesn’t do at all: looking at the geometric patterns in Islamic art, things like that. Math teachers are always talking about the applications of math in science, but how about in art? Janet Nelson with Her Husband, Four Children, Son-in-Law, and Her New Grandson The timing of my calling to the Young Women’s board is also miraculous because the school had hired me as long as it could under a certain type of contract, and I was trying to figure out what to do next. I can honestly say that Heavenly Father has opened doors, just when I was trying to figure out my next step. Before I got the calling, I was thinking, “I am going to do my part and do my leg work but Heavenly Father will open the right door for me because he knows what is going on in my life and he is helping me get there.” Let’s step away from the professional pursuits for a little bit to the subject of your spiritual development. Was there a particular time that you gained a testimony? What kinds of experiences have strengthened your testimony? Okay, so I hope I can get through this without being too emotional. The answer to this question is directly tied to your first question, because going from Salt Lake to Germany back to Salt Lake was really important in developing my testimony. I have journal entries that indicate that I recognized how different I felt when I was in Germany. To use the term we used in the 70s, Germany was the “mission field” and I recognized that I was a different person in those two places. My parents didn’t talk about stuff like this at home so this was all internal. I have journal entries from when I was in seventh grade in Germany: I felt the spirit so strongly in sacrament meeting. So I know that I was aware of my testimony, but I don’t remember feeling that in Utah. It’s very interesting. In Germany, we went to church in some back little room and 20 people are showing up for church. It was so meaningful to me. I came home from Germany at the start of my junior year of high school and I was living with my oldest sister, while my parents were still in Germany. It turned out that sister had cancer. She had to go to the hospital so I moved in with a neighbor. Kind of a crazy time! My little sister was living with my brother then he had to go donate his bone marrow for my oldest sister, so my younger sister ended up going with some other neighbor… so we were just all over the place. It was a really unusual year. I eventually donated platelets for my sister for five weeks straight. I think that is what changed my whole life. I was 16. She died while I was giving platelets. She was 28. I had some amazing experiences while I was with her. We had miracle after miracle after miracle but she wasn’t really getting better so we realized maybe this is her time to go. I left there knowing three things so powerfully that I can never deny them: 1) God knew us. He knew that my family was there. 2) I knew He lived. I knew He knew who I was and who my sister was and 3) I knew the Plan of Salvation was real. I just knew she was alive. That to me is like the foundation of everything I believe. For many years after that, it was difficult for me to try and match that powerful spiritual feeling I had at my sister’s death. I would think, “Do you have to have a tragedy to gain this kind of a testimony?” And for years I struggled with how to match that, to return to those feelings. I think about Alma talking about those who are compelled to be humbled; I was compelled because I wanted her to live, or at least to die peacefully. It’s been hard to ever want something quite that badly since then. When the Manhattan temple was dedicated, I was one of the tour guides, which was a great experience for me because I really had to prepare myself spiritually. I thought, “Okay, I didn’t serve a mission but I’m going to be a missionary here and I’m not going to tell people things I don’t really believe myself.” So I really challenged myself to ask myself what I believe. That was a really wonderful experience for me. After it was dedicated, I went to an endowment session by myself. I had never been to the temple alone because we would always go to the Washington D.C. temple as a couple. I just wanted to know if it was different after it was dedicated. I had given more than 30 tours through it, but it was different that time. What other things have strengthened my testimony? I think that visiting teaching is one of my favorite things in life. Visiting other people gives me perspective. I am strengthened so much by other people’s faith. And then just all the Sunday School answers. You read your scriptures and you pray and you are where you are supposed to be and you are strengthened. You go to sacrament meeting and you are edified and if you don’t go you aren’t. Are you edified every single time? Of course not, but how do you know when it’s going to be that time? Even meetings can be strengthening! I have been in so many of those meetings that you just think, this is good. Living in Germany as an adult when we were there as a family also strengthened my testimony. Europeans live in much closer quarters culturally. We lived two hours from Amsterdam and four hours from Paris. So when you go to the temple in Frankfurt, you’ve got people from France and people from Ukraine next to each other. It’s just culturally so diverse. I just used to sit in the temple and think about how different these people are culturally and that the only thing that can bring them together is the Gospel. And that was just so fascinating to me: French people would be doing temple work for German names and Germans would be doing work for Poles, and I would think, “These people haven’t always liked each other but the through God and the Gospel all things are possible.” One of the things I am told in my patriarchal blessings is that I have a believing heart. And that really rings true. I just am a believer. I just have always been willing to serve and I feel like here in New York I have been asked to do things that I would never be asked to do anywhere else. I have grown in ways I never expected. I have never viewed myself as a leader, but I have become a leader because I have been given the opportunities. Is there a particular doctrine that gives you confidence and comfort? As I mentioned, I love the Plan of Salvation. It’s not a doctrine, but my patriarchal blessing says that I should prepare for something and that I should work hard with a lot of energy. I felt like that really was who I was trained by my parents to be. A hard worker, both in earthly ways and spiritual ways. I have always read the Book of Mormon I always make sure I read it once a year. I have used it as my parenting manual. If you read the Book of Mormon with an angle, I find it has just got everything in it you need. Would you give me an example? I remember I was standing on the corner waiting to go visit teaching. I am a Martha not a Mary so I don’t ponder very much so it’s good for me to be forced to think. I had just been reading all the war chapters. When you’re reading those, you tend to think “What are all these stories in here for?” I had a child that I was really struggling with, and all of a sudden at that moment I thought, “They never gave up. They tried strategy after strategy. They never just said okay these Lamanites outnumber us and they’ve captured these cities. We will just give that property to them.” They kept trying until they won and I thought about how I couldn’t give up on this child. I just needed to try different strategies. That gave me so much hope. I think with children we have only lost the battle once we quit trying. Janet Nelson So let’s turn to the Young Women’s organization… What do you think is the greatest strength of Young Women? What do you feel you uniquely bring to it? I think the greatest strength is the individual Young Women, their faith and their testimonies. For six years, I helped run Girls’ Camp for our stake. So I got to see our girls go from their first year to graduating and going to college. I was so impressed with them. When I compared their experiences to my life, I realized that I really had no clue who I was or what I wanted to do at their age. But they have strong testimonies. They’re focused. They want to serve missions and they’re preparing for them. They’re amazing! They’ve thought through some difficult things early and they made conscious choices. I think the leaders who get to work with them benefit from that. The leaders are supposed to be the one leading and guiding, but it’s one of those things where the Young Women also strengthen the leaders. Can you describe some of the particular challenges you’ve dealt with among the Young Women? One of the things I benefit from here in New York is that our Young Women programs are usually stretched and have fewer resources, so we are forced to focus just on what is vital. I think that is a perspective that I can bring to the Young Women board: what is the core? We don’t need all the trappings to get at the vital part of the Gospel. I also have a sensitivity to bridging cultural differences. I know from our own stake that whatever little English cliché you say has to be translated to Spanish and Mandarin and whatever and it might not quite work. I bring an awareness of how different cultures and languages get along. I have a lot of camp experience. I’m really outdoorsy and I love to camp. I don’t think that’s something a lot of members of the board have. I’m excited to bring that to the group. How do you feel that teaching math in a New York City public high school has prepared you to work with the young women of the Church? I had 125 students this past year. I taught tenth and eleventh grade this year. I have taught seventh, ninth, tenth, and eleventh the last four years so I have pretty much taught students that span the whole age range of the Young Women’s program. I have seen not only how they mature and how they are with their peers, but I see the struggles that all religious youth deal with, especially at an extremely gifted secular school where religion is not well thought of. I’ve been with those kids day in and day out. I don’t think it even matters that it’s New York City because I really think that youth deal with a lot of the same things wherever they are. Having such insight into youth today, what do you think are most valuable things that the Young Women program can do for young women? The young women need to know who they are, and they learn that in the Young Women program. They need to know that they’re daughters of God and they can’t just recite the theme on Sundays. They really have to internalize that: I know when I’m struggling, Heavenly Father is there for me. Girls are alone a lot in their decisions, even when they’re surrounded by other members of the Church. I think having programs where they set goals and work towards them is great. They need to know how to function in the world and be spiritual, and achieve goals in both areas. I came from a goal setting family so goals are easy for me, but I don’t think that everyone has that. Personal Progress is great for that. I also think having relationships with leaders is so valuable. It is important for youth to have mentoring relationships in addition to parents. Each one of my children has had somebody in their life that they have been able to talk to. The Young Women program offers that to our girls today. As a mom I was grateful for those leaders who took time to encourage and listen to my children. How has this calling changed you personally since receiving it? Well, the process of receiving the call was just so amazing to me. It was January, and the phone rang at home. I was talking to my son on the other line, but it was an 801 number. We get those all of the time because my husband is stake president here, but I told my son to hold on a minute. I switched over and a woman says she’s calling from Elder Holland’s office and she’d like to set up a video conference with me and Jeff. So my first thought always is it’s something to do with Jeff’s calling. It was actually hard to schedule it because my daughter was about to have a baby and I had a trip planned… but I tried not to tell Elder Holland’s office that I couldn’t fit him in! But the call was scheduled for a week away, and my mind was going crazy. We had just gotten the Church News and they had just announced all the mission presidents, so I didn’t think it was that. In my mind, this was all about Jeff. And Jeff would say, “Why can’t this be about you?” But that just seemed silly to me. So we actually did the video conference in Hunter High School in between my classes. That probably broke all the rules but I was in the middle of exams and I just couldn’t leave. Jeff came to the school and we just set it up in a back office. When Elder Holland came on the screen, the Young Women’s presidency was there with him. And all of a sudden it just hit me: this was not about Jeff. We had a very warm conversation and then Elder Holland formally called me to the Young Women general board. The thing that was amazing to me was that through all this technology, I could feel the spirit. I mean, here we were in this little cubicle office and we’ve got this laptop set up and they’re in Salt Lake two thousand miles away but it was a beautiful spirit. Elder Holland asked Jeff to set me apart right then and there. How did that work? Even though he’s Stake President, your husband doesn’t have the keys… No, no he doesn’t have the keys. Elder Holland has the keys but he authorized Jeff to do it. So officially I was called by Elder Holland but set apart by Jeff Nelson. One of the things I feel strongly is that this calling is one of the things that was mentioned in my patriarchal blessing, one of the things I was preparing for and working hard for. Elder Holland didn’t know that and Sister Oscarson didn’t know that. I just feel like I am just a basic mom who goes to church and does what I am supposed to do, but Heavenly Father is my rock and He knows who I am. I may not always be able to see my potential but I feel like my husband is a great advocate for me and I feel like Heavenly Father knows what I can do and I have really learned to trust that. So as overwhelming as it was initially, I feel like He knows what I can do. It gives me a lot of faith to think Joseph Smith was a farm boy with a third grade education and look what he did. So if I just put my trust in Heavenly Father I can be whatever instrument He wants me to be. That is really comforting. I think part of the purpose of being called to something, to anything, is to stretch us and to take us out of our comfort zones. The board is made up of amazing women. Just across the board really great women! So to have that association is amazing! But also I’m being stretched and asked to do things that I am not really comfortable doing. And it’s okay. I’m the chairman of the camp committee, which is great. But I’m also serving on the media and communications committee and I don’t even have a Facebook page, so I am being stretched. I would always choose to do camp. But choosing to sit down and make myself a Facebook page? No way. But I feel like that’s what life is all about: we don’t want to be stagnant. We want to grow. At A Glance Name: Janet Nelson Location: Brooklyn, NY Age: 55 Marital status: Married Jeff Victor Nelson, 8/4/1981 Salt Lake Temple, (Utah, USA) Children: Emily Dean, Teresa Halversen, Nate Nelson, Sam Nelson Occupation: Secondary Schools Mathematics Teacher Schools Attended: East High School (Utah), University of Utah, Hunter College (CUNY), Columbia University (NYC, NY) Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: “God Loved Us So He Sent His Son” Interview produced by Neylan McBaine.

Willie Douglas has weathered some storms. She has been part of many of the tumults in America’s history over the last fifty years. She battled racism while working to integrate her place of employment in New Orleans. She lost one of her sons to fatal illness during the AIDS epidemic. She fled her home in the face of Hurricane Katrina–and then returned to New Orleans to help rebuild her city. But Willie’s faith has sustained her throughout. In the words of her favorite hymn: “The world may crush you, but you don’t have to fret My God remembers when others forget One thing I know, yes, I surely know Prayer changes things.” Tell me about your background. I was born in Mississippi, the oldest of eleven children, but my mother and father followed my grandparents to Chicago because there wasn’t jobs for blacks in Mississippi, other than cotton fields and what-have-you. After I got married and had a son, we moved to New Orleans because we heard there was work. My husband got a job, so I started back to school while he was working. I went to the University of New Orleans for a year and then I went to a training school, because at the time they weren’t teaching courses in hospitality at the colleges. I finished, but I couldn’t get a job in hospitality. I worked as an elementary school substitute teacher for a time. Finally I got a phone call from CORE, the Congress on Racial Equality. I went to talk to them. They wanted to desegregate the hospitality industry, so they were training people in non-violence and then trying to get them into jobs in hotels. [This was in 1969–1970.] For six months I went to that training and then they called on me to integrate the staff at the Bourbon Orleans Hotel. I went for a job interview with an elderly white lady and she was very nice. She told me they only had jobs for cleaning people, and I was over-qualified for those. She said that they would call me back if something came up. I believed her. I didn’t feel that she had any negative feelings toward me because of my color. But the CORE administrator thought that they just didn’t want to hire me because I’m black. So he told me that I needed to go back there and tell them that I would take whatever position they had open at the time. The point was just to get a foot in. So I went back. This time the general manager interviewed me. He asked me if I was willing to take a cleaning position until another position came open. I told him, “Oh sure! No problem, I clean at home.” The cleaning job lasted about a month before one of the supervisors said that she didn’t feel comfortable working with blacks. She resigned and they put me in her place. I did everything that was necessary to learn and to hold onto the job. From there I worked my way up. In 1997 I was named toWho’s Who in the Hospitality Industry. Willie Mae Wright Douglas Why did you want to work in the hospitality industry? What about it spoke to you? I like people! I enjoyed meeting people and working with people and talking to people. Most people think we learn from college and school, but I think you learn from dealing with different people. Every time I would talk to someone I would learn something. I’m not saying that it was easy. It was very hard! When I became director over the housekeeping department and manager-on-duty, I had to work in different spots around the hotel, and my color was a turnoff to some people. Guests would call for the manager and when I knocked on their door, they would open it and say, “I didn’t ask for a n—–, I asked for a manager.” I had to deal with incidents like that throughout my entire career. In 1985 I became a general manager of a small hotel. I attended the staff meeting where they announced that I was going to be in charge. One of the people attending the meeting was a man who had been an engineer at the hotel for a long time. After their announcement, he stood up and said, “I refuse to take orders from a n—–.” That was really hard for me. But I didn’t say anything! I just sat there and let him get it all off his chest. I figured it would just be a matter of time before he blew up and got fired. And actually we didn’t even end up needing to fire him. He quit. Throughout my career, I said a lot of prayers to hold myself together so that I wouldn’t explode, dealing with ignorant people like that. It wasn’t a good journey all the way, but it was a worthwhile journey. Willie Mae Wright Douglas with Her Husband, Rowan You turned to prayer at difficult times. Have you been a woman of faith for a long time? I have! I was raised Baptist. But it was 1999 when I really came to know God was by my side at all times. That was a hard time. Both my mother and my younger son got sick. My son was a fashion model. He lived in Atlanta and traveled around to model for some big stores. One day my niece called and told me that he had the AIDS virus. I didn’t know what I was going to do. I didn’t see how I would be able to make it without my son. I just couldn’t see my son dying before I died. A couple weeks after my niece told me, he called and told me that he needed to come see me, that there was something that he needed to talk to me about. He came to New Orleans and had lunch with me and told me himself. Now there’s a drug cocktail that some people with the virus are able to take, and it keeps them well. But he was allergic to something in the drug cocktail, so he couldn’t take it. They tried different medications to prolong his life, but they didn’t work long for him. Willie's Two Sons, Carl and Kirk It was such a hard time. Sometimes you don’t have anyone you can turn to. It was always chaotic between my husband and my son. My husband was against our son’s lifestyle. He didn’t care that he was sick. I just can’t explain how hard that was. It was a load weighing me down. I would go for a walk every evening and I would walk and I would pray. I asked God to help him and keep my son and not let him suffer, because I didn’t think I would be able to stand seeing him suffer when there was nothing I could do to help him. About the same time, my mom got sick. She lived in Mississippi, a five-hour drive from New Orleans. For a while I’d drive up and spend Monday and Tuesday cleaning her house or whatever she needed. Then my son got pneumonia. The doctors told him he probably wouldn’t be able to leave the hospital and he would not live longer than six months. So I went to Atlanta and moved him out of his apartment and brought him home with me. I went and got my mom from Mississippi and moved her in, too. So I had her and my son in the house, and I was taking care of both of them at the same time. Plus I was working full time. I had no support from my husband on that decision. It was a hard, lonely time. My son wasn’t doing good. He ended up back in the hospital. When I would leave work I would go to the hospital to see him. (And sometimes before work and at lunch too.) One night I had been at the hospital until about 2 in the morning. I was on my way home. It was raining and the streets were wet and I was crying. I heard a voice say, “STOP!” I put on my brakes so hard that I spun around and a cab hit me on the side. The cab driver got out and said, “Miss, can I help you? Are you all right?” I said, “I’m fine.” He said, “You have a nick on the back bumper of your car. Let me give you my insurance information. Are you sure I can’t call anyone?” It was a while before I could get myself together to go on to the house. And when I got home I just sat in the car for a while. I felt like I could hear someone saying, “It’s going to be just fine.” After that, all of my problems with him being sick left me. I was at peace. My prayer stopped being, “Why did it happen to my son? How can I keep going?” and became, “God, please don’t let him suffer.” He came back home and I cared for both him and my mother. Finally, in September 1999, my mother passed. Two days after she had passed, in the evening while I was still at work, my son’s home nurse called and told me that he wanted me to come home. I said, “Do we need to go to the hospital?” She said, “No. He is happy, but he wants you to come home.” When I got home I said, “What’s the matter?” He said, “Nothing. I just need you to call my pastor and Aunt Ruth and Aunt Margaret.” I thought he was preparing himself to pass, but later I realized he was thinking about me: he was trying to get people around me so that I wouldn’t be alone when he passed. He said that he was tired and that his knee was hurting him. So I rubbed his legs and told him to just go on and sleep. He went to sleep and that was it. He passed in his sleep that night at about 8:00. God is good. I always felt like he was by my side with my child and my mother. He is always there when you need him. What a devastating time. And then just a few years later, in 2005, Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. Tell me about that. At the time, I managed the Ramada Inn on Bourbon and St. Anne. Before it hit, of course I was watching the news on it. The morning of the day that it arrived, they announced that everyone should leave the city. I called my assistant and told her to call everyone and tell them not to worry about trying to come to work and that they needed to take care of themselves. We had some guests still at the hotel. Some of the employees volunteered to take the guests along with them to Baton Rouge. So I was able to close down the hotel. When everything was squared away, my husband and I left New Orleans and drove here to Columbus, Mississippi, where my other son was already living. It’s a five-hour drive, but it took us twelve hours. It was really bad. We were still in Mississippi when I found out my house had been destroyed. My nephew in New York called my son and said that he could see water all over the top of my house. I guess it was on TV. How did it feel to get the news that way? I didn’t get upset at the time and I didn’t feel sad. I often think about this and wonder to myself why I didn’t get upset. But I didn’t. I just said, “God is going to take care of this problem as He has always taken care of problems that I have had.” Officials were saying that you had to come back and clean up your property. So I went back to New Orleans. Once I got there I could see all the destruction and how much people had lost. It was horrible. Sadness washed over me then. Even though I felt sad, it never did get to the point where I was just constantly thinking about the sadness. I’d worked for the owner of my hotel for 18 years, so he asked me if I could get the hotel back up and running. He also asked me to help any staff who wanted to come back to the city. He owned some apartments in a suburb, Metairie, so he provided some of those apartments. Once I started working with the problems of my staff and on the problems of the hotel, my problems seemed small. I worked for about another year, helping people solve their problems, before I retired. How did you come to join the LDS Church? When I lived in New Orleans, some LDS missionaries lived nearby. I’d see them ride by on their bikes.Sometimes they would have been caught in the rain and I would drive into my driveway and discover them sitting on my porch waiting for the rain to stop. So I became friendly with them. Sometimes I would let them read Bible verses or say a prayer for me. I was friendly with them. In 2006 I retired and moved from Louisiana to Mississippi to be close to my older son and his family. When I moved into my new home, my first visitors were Mormon missionaries. Had the New Orleans missionaries given them your address? No! They didn’t know where I’d moved! It was God who sent them. He knew that I needed a change in my life, so he sent them to visit me. One of them, Elder Simmons, stood out to me. Once he found out we were from the flood, he and his companion would come just to talk to me, or to help me do yard work, or whatever I needed done. He wasn’t always trying to get me to join the Church. Lots of times we would sit on the back patio and talk with tears coming down our faces. You just knew that he felt in his heart what he was saying to you. We’d talk about how life can be very hard sometimes and about how it’s even harder if you don’t have a strong belief in God. Eventually, he baptized me. Willie's Husband, Son, and Two of Her Grandsons I understand you are once again caring for a family member. Yes, my husband. Things had been difficult between us and I had made up my mind when I moved up here to Mississippi that he would stay in New Orleans and we would go our separate ways. But for some reason that didn’t happen. He came here to Mississippi. In 2009 he had a stroke. So now I am his primary caregiver. I don’t have other family nearby, other than my son. I was a counselor in the Relief Society presidency, and I had gotten in the habit of going to the temple, but all those things have stopped since my husband had his stroke. That’s not easy, but there is a reason for things and I strongly believe that there is something that God needs me to learn from this experience. At one time, my husband’s condition was so bad, I had to do everything for him. Now he can do some things for himself so I have started going back to Church regularly. It’s very hard sometimes, but I will get through it. Joining the Church has given me a different outlook on the plan that our Heavenly Father has. I love the Baptist people that I grew up with, but growing up I had the idea that my only hope of going to heaven was to be a perfect person. And I always worried, “I am never going to be a perfect person.” But I have learned that Heavenly Father has a place for me. Now I believe there is hope for me and people like me. There will be a place and God will give me a chance to improve my shortcomings and become a better person. I just need to keep believing in Heavenly Father and trying to do the right things and asking for forgiveness on things that I don’t do. I read the Bible more now, since I became a Mormon, than I ever did before. When I was in the Baptist church I would only hear what the pastor or preacher said that I should or shouldn’t be doing. Now I’m learning how to read and understand it for myself. Now I read and I see some things that Iamdoing right, so I feel better about myself. I strongly believe in the teachings of the Mormon faith. They have helped me a lot. At A Glance Name: Willie Mae Wright Douglas Location: Columbus, Mississippi. Age: 75 Marital status: Married 54 years. Children: Two sons, one age 54 and one who would have been 49 (he died in 1999). Occupation: Retired. Schools Attended: Amite County Training School, classes at Ochsner Hospital, University of New Orleans, Delgado Community College. Languages Spoken at Home: English. Convert to the Church: March 1, 2007. Favorite Hymn: “Prayer Changes Things,” Mahalia Jackson. Interview by Annette Pimentel.

EDITOR’S NOTE: Kayleyn Louder’s death was confirmed on December 2, 2014, a week after this interview was published. We are saddened by the news, and offer our sincere condolences to Kayelyn’s mother, sister, and cousin interviewed here, along with the rest of Kayelyn’s family and friends who mourn her loss. Please see the “How to Help” section below for details about donations in support of the Louder family. On a cold and rainy November morning, more than 170 volunteers with ponchos, hand warmers, and GPS trackers canvased a one-mile radius in Murray, Utah, in hopes of finding clues that would lead to Kayelyn Louder, a 30-year-old social worker who’s been missing for nine weeks. Kayelyn was last seen on a surveillance video running barefoot in the rain, wearing a white tank top and jean shorts. She left behind her keys, wallet, cell phone, and her beloved Chinese pug, Phyllis. Her disappearance has stunned and confused family and friends. After the most recent search, Kayelyn’s mother Suzie Louder, sister Madi Rodriguez, and cousin Amy Fugal shared their heartaches and hopes in their search for Kayelyn. How are you holding up with everything that’s happened? Suzie: I don’t know that I am. I hope and pray that we get some answers but I don’t really know that I’m holding up. I have ups and downs and sleepless nights. What do you think about at night? Suzie: I reminisce about Kayelyn when she was little. I think about her quirks. I think about what could have possibly happened to her and where she could be. I think about her constantly. When was the last time you talked to Kayelyn? Suzie: We talked almost every day. On the morning of her disappearance, a Saturday, I talked to her on the phone as I was driving down the canyon. It was a normal conversation. She sounded fine. I told her, “I’m driving through the canyon and I’m going to lose you. I’ll call you back later.” But that was the last time we talked. I kept calling her that weekend, but she didn’t answer. On Monday, I went to work and told my husband how weird it was that I hadn’t heard back from Kayelyn, so he tried to get a hold of her without any luck. Then, her roommate called me on Tuesday and asked, “Have you seen Kayelyn? I haven’t seen her for a couple of days.” That’s when we began to panic. The next morning my husband went down to look for her, and found her purse, phone, and dog, Phyllis, at her condo. She wouldn’t have left on her own without any of those things. My husband immediately got the police involved. It took me a couple of days to really believe it. I thought we’d find her. I thought she’d come back. Kayelyn Louder Kayelyn called 911 three times before she disappeared. She was convinced someone had broken into her condo. She sounded scared. What was your reaction when you heard those calls? Suzie: It was startling. I thought something really weird has happened and I want to get to the bottom of it. What was this all about? If she’s needing help, why weren’t we notified? She’s never called 911 in her whole life. Do you think there was foul play in her disappearance? Amy: There’s got to be at this point. Something has happened. Someone knows where she’s at or has done something to her or has seen her and hasn’t come forward. You mentioned you’ve been praying a lot. What do you ask for in your prayers? Amy: For some sort of guidance to find her. We’ve prayed for law enforcement and private investigators to know which leads are most important. And for someone good to be put in her path who can help her. I imagine a tragedy like this must try one’s faith. How has this affected you spiritually? Suzie: We’ve had several struggles in our family, so I was really mad when this happened. I kept thinking, “Why does the Lord keep doing this to me?” Because I’m not that strong. For a while, I was bitter and angry. And I think, “Everyone has problems, but why do mine have to be all over the TV?” It’s hard to not get immediate answers. There may come a time when we say we may never know what happened, and I don’t know that I’m okay with that. Amy: We’ve experienced a lot of everything, to be honest. There’s a lot of frustration, but there’s also amazing people who have helped in so many ways. Random strangers call us up asking how they can help. The hundreds of volunteers who’ve searched, put up flyers, and shared on social media. People have donated money, billboards and food. Just recently, someone gave us the idea to call Adult Probation and Parole. We did and they called us back and had us come to one of their meetings. More than 100 parole officers met with us and went out into the community passing out flyers and asking people about Kayelyn. That was an answer to prayers. How do you go on with the day-to-day of life? Has a “new normal” begun for you? Suzie: I’ve decided there’s no normal. I’m still working, not by choice, but I need to keep working even though Kayelyn is always on my mind. It’s a good distraction for me. When I stay at home, I begin to feel despair and hopelessness. Going to work and getting out in the community enables me to feel love and concern from others. Thank goodness for dear friends at work who put their hand on my shoulder and tell me they love me and are praying for me. Those small things help me get through the day. Kayelyn Louder and Phyllis Tell me about Kayelyn. What is she like? Madi: It doesn’t matter who you were, what you believe, or what you wear— she loves you for you. That’s why she has so many different friends. She loves everybody. Amy: She’s quirky, unassuming, nonjudgmental, fun-loving, and easy to be around. Neighbors who had never met her said they’d see her walking her dog and she’d stop by to chat and invite them over for tea. She’s an avid reader and would lend books to her neighbors. Suzie: I grounded her from the library when she was little, which I never had to do with my other kids. She loves books. She loves sushi and spending time with friends. She has a twin brother, Colton, so when she was younger she was always trying to find her place, but she became more outgoing as she got older. We raised our family in Lehi. Kayelyn went to Utah State University to study social work. Her most recent job was as a social worker at the Gateway Academy, a treatment center for teenage boys. She loves animals, especially her dog, Phyllis. One time, when she was little, I came home and looked out the window and she was in the orchard on the back of a horse that hadn’t yet been broken. I told her brother, “Go get Kayelyn!” and he said, “She’s fine, she does that every day when she gets home from school.” That horse loved her. It must be hard not having any closure, not knowing what to feel or whether to grieve. Madi: Yeah, we don’t know how to feel. We don’t know if she’s alive or dead. We don’t have any answers. We just feel sad. Suzie: As her mother, I want to protect her and I don’t know how to do that. Some days I don’t have any hope. But we don’t have evidence that she’s dead, so until proven otherwise, we have to hope. We’ve made up a lot of scenarios in our own mind. Everything you could imagine. But as far as police go, they don’t have any strong leads. What’s the best thing people can do to help? Amy: Spread her story and face on social media. Attend the searches. Be aware. Madi: Sometimes people just want to get wrapped up in a story, but this isn’t just a story. This is a person. Suzie: This is my little girl. UPDATE: HOW TO HELP On December 2, 2014, police confirmed Kayelyn Louder’s death. Her body was found in the Jordan River some miles from her home in Utah, nine weeks after her disappearance. No details have been released about the cause of her death. Ongoing donations to the Find Kayelyn Louder fund will help Kayelyn’s family pay for costs associated with her funeral and for ongoing private investigations. WAYS TO DONATE: 1. Through the #FindKayelyn fund. 2. At any Wells Fargo bank location in Utah: Find Kayelyn Louder Fund. 3. At any Mountain America Credit Union location in Utah: Find Kayelyn Louder. Interview by Kathryn Peterson.

When Linda Vergauwen joined the Church in Belgium in 1978, neither she nor her friends and family knew anything about Mormons. Today, Linda is a pillar of the Church in Flemish Belgium and the principal of an elementary school, proving that she has earned her community’s trust despite her membership. Linda describes the challenges of raising children in a community where the Church is small and growing slowly, going to the temple with no preparation, and the joy that comes from a life of dedicated service to the Savior. I was born in Belgium, in a city that is named Sint-Niklaas (Santa Claus). That’s funny, yes? I was raised as a Catholic. My parents were Catholic. My father really had a great faith in the Lord and he taught us how to pray. We went to church every Sunday. I was active in the youth program there. It’s called Chiro. It’s kind of like Young Women. I met my husband in 1974 and we married in 1977 in a Catholic church. I had never heard about the Mormon Church. And when we had been married one year we met the missionaries. They said that they had a very important message for us. Was this on the street or did they come to your home? This was on the street. We were moving from our first little apartment to a bigger one and they just stopped us in the street and said they wanted to share an important message with us. We said, “We are moving now, we have no time now, so maybe another time,” so they made an appointment with us. It took several appointments before we were actually home when they came by. We didn’t miss the appointments on purpose, but my husband, Jo , and I were saying, “If it is such an important message, they will come again.” What was it about them that made you willing to have them even come over in the first place? Most people don’t listen when the missionaries say they have an important message. What was it about you at that point in your life or about those missionaries that got you to listen? We weren’t searching for anything. We were happy just being newlyweds. But the missionaries were the same age we were so maybe that was the reason we listened. They were Americans and that was interesting, so maybe that is the reason why we let them in. So, the third time they just came by and knocked on the door and we said, “Yes, come in!” They shared the message of the Restoration and taught us about the timeline of prophets. We believed almost everything. I mean, we were raised as Catholic and we had the Old Testament and the New Testament, but then came the Restoration. Linda Vergauwen and Her Husband And that just felt right to you? You received a witness of the Spirit right then? No, not then, but they made other appointments. The second time they showed us the Book of Mormon and told us that Jesus had appeared in America. I remembered as a girl in high school we had a lesson about that in history: the legend of Quetzalcoatl.When the Spaniards first came to the Americas they met the Indians and the Indians thought God was returning, and so I thought, “That’s interesting. I have heard that before.” I read the Book of Mormon in two days. It was vacation time, August, so I had plenty of time to read. And I read it from morning to evening and it was like a movie in your head. You’re just caught up in the story, and it felt good to read it. Did your husband have the same response that you did? My husband isn’t much of a reader, so he just said to me, “If there is something strange in it, tell me.” Of course, there are many strange things in it. But the first time it was like I didn’t read the strange things; I only found nice things in it. I told him that I prayed about it and I felt comfortable with it. I had a good feeling about it. At that time in Europe, Americans were regarded with a bit of suspicion. I thought, “Why must the gospel be restored in America and not in Palestine or Israel?” So it was strange to me and I just couldn’t accept Joseph Smith as a prophet then. But we followed the discussions with the missionaries, and my husband and I were always thinking, “If what they’re saying is true then we must change our lives.” So with that attitude we followed the discussions. We didn’t start with searching; we weren’t sad and we were good in our own religion. We were young people and the thought of changing our lives was very scary for us. We actually told the missionaries not to come back at one point. We were believing people already. In Belgium, drinking is socially accepted,, a lot of people smoke, here, most of the people don’t honor the Sabbath Day like Church members do. It’s quite different. Jo and I were a little scared of the consequences on our social life. But I am a polite woman and we had made an appointment, so when the missionaries rang the bell I told them, “Come in, but this is the last time you can come because we don’t want the discussions anymore.” And that missionary just gave his testimony and that changed everything. It was so powerful. My husband at that moment felt the Spirit so strongly. You asked before why we let the missionaries come back and it was because of the Spirit. They had something with them that we didn’t. We always said when they left our home, “What is that feeling that they have?” It was a good feeling, so that’s why we let them come back. But during the last discussion they gave their testimonies so powerfully that it changed us. So how did your life change? How did the gospel become an integral part of your life after you made that decision? I assume it was a really big change for you. It really was a big change. We had a lot of troubles with the family. Our parents felt sad. They were mad. Those first years were terrible for us. They’re really good people but they couldn’t understand us following another religion. It was like betraying them because it changed our life completely. We never drank alcohol after our baptism. My husband smoked a lot but after being baptized he never smoked again. Sundays were different. You asked how the gospel became a part of our lives. I think that the gospel is our life. It gradually becomes your life. You must grow and there were things that we didn’t understand in the beginning. Do you want to hear a funny story? I would love to hear it! As a Catholic you are taught that a priest in your community is a priest forever. So when we became members of the Church, there was a branch president over our branch here in Belgium and we accepted him and thought he would always be our branch president. He was a very kind man. One day we were called to come to the mission president’s office and he called my husband, Jo, as the new branch president. And Jo said to him, “I think you’re making a mistake—we already have a branch president!” That’s when we learned that callings are only for a few years. Tell me a little bit about your children. What is it like to raise four children in the Church in Belgium and how did you teach the gospel to them? I have four children, three boys and one girl. They’re all married now. My first boy, Dagmar is his name. He was born before we were sealed in the temple because you have to be a member for a year before you can go to the temple. The closest temple was in Switzerland, and we had to travel there during our vacation time because that week was a Flemish week at the temple. (We speak Flemish where I live. In Belgium you speak two languages, French and Flemish. Flemish is a kind of Dutch.) So he went to Switzerland with us to be sealed. How old was he when you did that? He was about nine months. But when we went to the temple we had had no preparation for it. It almost made us go inactive. The preparation for the temple has changed a lot now and I think that is wonderful. We had our temple interviews with the branch president and the district president and the mission president, but we hadn’t even seen the garments before. We went to the temple because we thought, “Okay, we want to be sealed forever.” That was the purpose for us because we loved each other so much. That was also a big reason for joining the Church, because the missionaries told us that we could be together forever. But you didn’t know that you had to go through all these other ordinances? No! It was a wonderful feeling in the church buildings because there is almost nothing ceremonial, only the sacrament. We liked not having ceremonies after being Catholic. But then in the temple everything is ceremonial. It wasn’t comfortable at all. The Lord helped us to stay through the ordinance. The initiatories are very beautiful. That was wonderful to experience. But we couldn’t understand any of the endowment. But then when the temple rituals were over we were sealed and there was a very strong spirit there as we were sealed forever, and our little boy to us. The people there were very nice to us! But when we came out of the temple my husband said, “I need to be alone. Don’t worry, I will come back, but I need to be alone.” I felt that the temple ordinances were true but I didn’t understand them. It was difficult. When my husband didn’t come back after more than an hour, I was worried, but then he came back and he had a smile on his face. And he said, “We are staying.” We had come to the temple for a whole week, so the next day we went back for another session. I gradually learned to love to go to the temple. I think it’s wonderful that you share that because so many people have a similar experience. I think there is a lot more attention to preparation now than there was 30 years ago, but it’s still startling for a lot of people. But I think if you can share stories like yours and talk about how you were startled at first but then came to a feeling of peace about the temple and decided to stay, that is a wonderful example. Yes! When the missionaries taught us the lessons, they said to us, “Always go to church because of your testimony, because of Christ. Never go because of the members.” I tell you my feelings, because when I became a member I thought that everybody in the Church was perfect. Because the missionaries taught you the gospel perfectly. And you were thinking that all those nice people that you met are perfect. But they aren’t. I am so grateful that that missionary, more than 30 years ago, told us to not expect that people are perfect and it’s okay. We are all trying to go in the same direction and that’s the most important thing. How have you seen the Church change in Belgium over the last 30 years? We are not growing fast. We are a stake now; the Flemish stake takes in Belgium and part of the Netherlands. So in order to have enough members they took members from two countries to make one stake. My husband was the first stake president here in Flemish Belgium, president of the Antwerp Stake. When we first joined the Church, almost nobody had heard about the Church here in Flemish Belgium. We hadn’t heard a thing about the Mormons. Now, more than 30 years later, the Church still isn’t recognized as a church in Belgium but we are not categorized under the sects anymore. They don’t know where they want to put us. We are not a sect but we are not a legal church in Belgium. One of the reasons is that every church in Belgium that is recognized gets subsidies from the country; with our taxes we pay for every religion that is recognized. So tax money would go to the Church if it became an official religion? Is Catholicism that state religion? We have several recognized religions. Every religion that is recognized is official. The Catholic Church and Protestant churches are recognized, and Islam, etc, but not Mormonism or Jehovah’s Witnesses. Tell me about your experience as an educator. Where did you first realize that you were interested in teaching and how did you get into this job? Well, I am the principal of a school. You must know that in Belgium there are three kinds of schools. There are religious schools like Catholic schools. The Jewish and Protestant people have their own schools in Belgium. Then there are the official schools. In those official schools you have two kinds. You have the schools that are governed by the country’s government and then you have schools that are governed by the local government. I liked teaching when I was a little girl, like lots of little girls playing school. I like to talk. I like to explain things. I was a good student, and my first choice was to become a surgeon. But that was before I met my husband. I met my husband when I was 16 years old; he is three years older than me. Then I said, “Oh no, I don’t want to study that long.” In Belgium it’s tradition that you study before you marry, and I couldn’t see myself studying for seven, eight, nine years before I married him. So then I was thinking, “Okay what do I like also?” Then I thought I would like to become a teacher. And I really love it. It was probably my first choice and my best choice. Linda Vergauwen Did you teach when your children were young and at home or is this something that you got into when you were older? No, I taught before they were born, but once I started having children I stayed home. I was a temporary teacher, like a substitute, so it would have been hard for me to keep teaching. When I was at home, I read a lot. But I was still a teacher at church, although not ever in Primary. It’s strange, but it was always Sunday School, Young Women’s, Relief Society, and young adults; it was never Primary. So I was still a teacher at church. At church, I taught the teachers’ development course. I didn’t practice teaching outside of the Church but I stayed in my heart a teacher. When my children went to school, their school asked me to be a substitute teacher, so I did that for a lot of years when someone was sick. They called me and I went and I liked it. What a great way to keep up your skills! I stayed about 10 years that way! Then, in 2000, I got a call to become a teacher in the school where I am now the principal. I taught 12-year-olds, the last year of elementary school. I worked my way up to now being principal of the school. That’s amazing! Do you like being an administrator now or do you still get to go in the classroom sometimes? Only when we don’t find a substitute! Administration is quite a different job. It’s amazing because when we first joined the Church, no one would have ever asked me to be a principal. But over the years, people at the school got to know me for who I am and they liked how I taught the children, and that the parents and children all liked me. When my children married in the temple, I put the invitation on our board at school and the other teachers were invited to come to the reception. When my sons went on missions, I invited them all to come to sacrament meeting and a lot of them came. So that is why they let me become the principal, I think, because they know I live my principles. But I don’t force them; I just live them. As a principal in my school I must be very neutral. Sometimes that is difficult, but I am who I am and I think that the way you live speaks louder than the way you talk. And they trust you now. What else do you enjoy doing besides teaching and being an administrator? I love to paint. I am illustrating my first book—a children’s book that I have written. It’s about a little dragon that comes out of a computer game and follows his adventures. I’m not putting the gospel in it, but of course you can see principles of the gospel in it. I do in my own way. I love painting, writing, and playing the harp. And do your children live by you now? In American ways they live nearby, yes! My oldest son lives about 20 minutes away, and for us that is far! My two other sons and daughter are in the same ward I belong, so they live close by us. Are they all active now and raising their families in the Church? Yes! And they all married Belgian members, yes. The three boys married Belgian member girls who are beautiful and very nice. My daughter had more difficulties. There weren’t so many boys in church. She started to chat on the Internet and became friends with a boy who was a nonmember, but he became interested in the Church. He had the missionary lessons, got baptized, and became a member of the Church, and they were sealed in the temple and had three children. He was a counselor in our ward and then one day he left her. So that is difficult, but it can happen. Being sealed in the temple doesn’t mean everything will be okay in your marriage. Here in Belgium there are a lot of divorces. I live in a village; it’s not a town. And here almost a third of the children have divorced parents. But my daughter is still active in church. She is taking care of the three children on her own now? Yeah, she and her ex husband didn’t chose co-parenting. The children are always with her, except for every two weeks when they go to their father’s for the weekend. Anuschka has tried to find another man at Church, and she is still so young. Her husband left her when she was 26, so she was still in the age of the young adults, but it was very difficult to get someone to become interested in her because she had three children and had already been married. She was so frustrated. She said, “Mom, I always kept the commandments and I know it’s true but what do I have to learn more?” So she’s married to a nonmember now. It’s her choice and he is good to her. But she received a lot of priesthood blessings before she made that decision and she hopes that one day he will get interested in the Church. Is he supportive of her activity? Yes! She can go to church! Every year she goes to the London Temple for one week with her three children and her husband stays home. I can understand how he feels: trapped by a Mormon family where everybody is active in the Church except him. So we try to be very welcoming to him. Linda Vergauwen Tell me about the trial you have had with your son Jarno’s health. I have Crohn’s disease, and when Jarno had trouble with his intestines almost three years ago now, the doctor sent him immediately to a specialized hospital. There the doctors found out he had Crohn’s too, not only in his intestines, but in his liver canals too. They put him on some medicine, but shortly thereafter Jarno got very sick and they told us he needed a new liver. So he was put on the European transplant list. He was on the bottom of that list, because except for his liver canals, he was a healthy young man. The challenge was that my son needed a liver from a donor, but he couldn’t get one in time. So the doctors started looking for a living donor. Jarno’s wife, Mayra, and my daughter, Anuschka volunteered to be donors. My heart went out for them and my son. Anuschka’s husband had just left her with three very young children, as I mentioned earlier. Mayra was pregnant with their third child. I pleaded with the Lord for a miracle, I pleaded for protection for their lives. Then, about two months before the transplant took place, my nephew Jonah came with a gift we will never forget. He is a few years older than Jarno. He was baptized in the Church when he was eight years old, but became inactive when he was 18 years old. He volunteered to be the living donor. The evening before the operation, Jarno and Mayra got a special priesthood blessing. Jonah was there too, and he asked for one for himself too. It was a very spiritual evening, with a lot of tears.Jonah gave a part of his liver so that our son could live longer. The operation went well (how I prayed to Heavenly Father to protect the lives of those two precious children!). Since that day, Jonah has become an active member again. He said, “I gave Jarno his earthly life again, but he gave me my eternal life back.” Jarno’s health still has its ups and downs. We talk a lot about the gospel and the plan of salvation. He and his little family have a very positive attitude. Because of the restored gospel, I know that whatever circumstances come, we can be together forever! Is there anything that you would like to share in summary about your experience being a member in Belgium and raising your family in the Church here? Being a member of the Church is almost the same in every part of the world, I think. I think the point is that you keep your covenants no matter what happens in your life. Raising your children there are ups and downs. When my children were teenagers, I sometimes wished I could put them in the refrigerator until they were 21 years old! It was a little bit scary because they were the only members of the Church in their school. So I worried that they would follow their friends in other decisions. They did for a few years and they rebelled when they were teenagers, but we always kept our covenants. We always went every Sunday to church and always did our family prayers, even if somebody wasn’t there. We went to their room and did it with the ones who were there. We did our Family Home Evening even when they thought it was boring. Not for long times, because we knew it must be short but good. But one day they had to find out for themselves if the gospel is true. Our kids told us that they knew that we knew it was true, and they wanted to know it too. So they learned for themselves that it is true and we are so grateful for that! They are an exception in Belgium. There are a lot of members who are faithful members whose children fall away, and I don’t know why we have been blessed with children who are active in the Church. But it doesn’t matter; you must love your children. We had to learn that in those years when they weren’t active. We had to learn to love unconditionally; it is one of the hardest commandments. If you live the gospel, you have a happy life—I know it! We are a happy family! We love each other! We are not weird! To be a member of Christ’s Church has brought me so many blessings! Now I can see the whole picture a lot better. I enjoy life. I don’t know what challenges lie in the future, but I know I always will learn something from them. I love my husband, my children, and my grandchildren. I love the gospel. I love my Savior. I love to be a member of His Church. At A Glance Name: Linda Vergauwen Location: Belgium Age: 56 Marital status: Married to Jo Buysse Children: Dagmar (34), Anushka (32), Jarno (30) and Kjelld (29) Occupation: principal of an elementary school Baptism: October 1978 Schools Attended: Atheneum Sint-Niklaas, Rijksnormaalschool Sint-Niklaas Languages Spoken at Home: Flemish Favorite Hymn: “How Great Thou Art” On The Web: http://dagmar6.wix.com/lindavergauwen Interview by Neylan McBaine.

Deondra, Desirae and Melody are three of the 5 Browns, a piano performing quintet composed of siblings. The sisters all attended The Juilliard School together and tour and perform with their brothers, gaining the highest accolades in the classical music world and performing in some of its finest venues. Three years ago, their father was sentenced to ten years in prison for sexual abuse involving the girls, and Deondra and Desirae founded the The Foundation for Survivors of Abuse, which focuses on changing the statute of limitation legislation across the country. Would you tell me a little bit about your similarities and differences as sisters? Desirae: Our similarities are that we’re all sisters, we’ve chosen music as our career, and we share the same family history–some of which was good, and some bad. As far as differences go, our personalities are very different. Even though I’m the oldest sister, Deondra often takes control of situations–she’s very organized and she directs us in our working situation. She deals mostly with our manager and will tell us where we need to be and when to be there and what to practice. Deondra is also a very good friend. She is a binding force for the five of us. She’s always reaching out, making calls, and checking in on how everybody’s doing. Melody, she’s very kind and thoughtful. Both Deondra and Melody are. Deondra: Melody is always very thoughtful and always wants to make sure that everyone’s okay. She’s really kind to people and she tries very hard to check in with everyone. She’s a creative force behind a lot of projects that we do as a group, like music videos. She has a really great artistic eye. Desirae and I are only 14 months apart, so we are very close. We went to school together and I graduated early so we could go to Juilliard together. Desirae has a super easygoing personality; she’s very chill and doesn’t get stressed. People are really drawn to her because she’s so personable and outgoing and always has something interesting to say. Deondra, Desirae and Melody Brown Melody: As far as similarities go, obviously we all look alike. The only difference is I’m the brunette and they’re the blondes. One thing that’s really cool about Deondra and Desirae is they’ve both been running the Foundation for Survivors of Abuse. Deondra is a force to be reckoned with. She’s the one who is making huge changes in the world, especially the U.S. That’s always been in her personality. She’s very fiery and is determined to get things done. Her drive has always helped us in our careers and it’s helping the Foundation move forward. Desirae is right behind her doing this with her. Desirae and Deondra are both mothers, but now that Desirae has two children, it’s so funny to me to see a side of Desirae that I’ve never seen before! She has to be more planned and organized, so her easy going chill self now has a little more Deondra in there. You all sound so lovely! It’s pretty remarkable that the five of you are all professional piano players. How did you all get started in piano? Desirae: We started getting into piano because my mom was a singer and was involved in vocal performance. She found a piano teacher who taught children as young as three years old. Being the oldest in the family, I started playing the piano when I was three. I remember Deondra really wanted to come to my piano lessons and I told her that she’d have to wait until she was three. So when she turned three she started lessons and all down the line everybody started when they were three years old. I suppose the strange thing is that eventually everyone chose to make music their life. It wasn’t something that was necessarily expected; we each individually chose to make it our career. At what point did you know that this was not just a hobby or a casual interest? Deondra: When I reached my mid-to-late teenage years, I started to think more about what I wanted to do with my life–what college I wanted to attend. I think each of us in our teenage years realized this was something we really wanted to do, something we each wanted for ourselves. Each of us deciding that we wanted to go to a music school was the first big step. When we all attended Juilliard together, we had such great teachers and classmates. When it came time to graduate, management approached us and gave us the opportunity to perform and record albums together. It was one of those things that you always hope for, but it’s so difficult to break into the music business, and we were super excited that we were able to do it together. We just hit our 10th year of performing and touring together and it’s amazing that not only do I get to do this, but four of my best friends are there sharing these experiences with me. Deondra, Desirae and Melody Brown That sounds amazing! As you mentioned, you all attended Juilliard together, did you all move to New York City at the same time? Melody: Actually it was kind of gradual. When Desirae and Deondra reached college age, they decided to audition at different music schools around the country so that they could go off to college together. They decided on Juilliard and moved to New York City. They lived in the dorms while the rest of us were all in Utah, and they would call and tell us about the incredible training they were getting. One of their teachers headed up the pre-college division at Juilliard. Deondra and Desirae told us that we should really consider coming out and auditioning, so we went out and auditioned and we ended up getting in! At that point, my parents felt it was important enough to make the move across the country. So, the rest of us came a year later. We moved slightly upstate, about 45 minutes out of the city. Desirae and Deondra were still in the dorms and then eventually they moved upstate with us and moved home for a little bit. Did you experience culture shock when you moved from Utah to New York City? Desirae: A lot of people say that when you first come to New York City, you either love it or hate it. The first time I set foot in the city, I loved it. And I think my siblings share that feeling. It was so exciting to be somewhere where culture was at the forefront. The people there love theatre, dance, and music and I felt like I had found my people. In Utah I never really had that feeling. New York City was just such an exciting city. I loved the idea of being surrounded by people all the time. Something was always happening. After living in Utah and being homeschooled and spending many hours in a practice room, I found New York to be a really exciting change. Even today as I was contemplating this interview, I reflected that it was when I came to New York City that my life finally started. Deondra: I felt like even though we were away from home and in a big city, I still found peace in the city. Juilliard is right across the street from the LDS church in Manhattan, which is now the temple. I also remember our singles ward being massive. So even though we were away from home, there was still a community of LDS people that made it so much easier at difficult points to be able to feel like I could find that inner peace amid a busy life. Melody: When I first got there, I was about 13 years old. I remember it being slightly jarring that there wasn’t a lot of rural space. I was used to being outside with my brothers, riding our bikes and going up canyons. I remember one of the first days of living there, I was sitting outside on a patio and I was just thinking, “Oh my gosh, there’s really nowhere I can go where I can be alone!” There are so many people everywhere that it can be like a rat race. But on the flipside, when we entered the pre-college division at Juilliard, like Desirae, I felt like I had found my people. It was amazing to finally have true friends who understood what we were going through as musicians. Some of our friends were already touring so they could barely make it to school. We had all this commonality, like not being able to make it to homecoming dances and proms. I remember this one time one of my good friends could actually go to prom and she was so excited that she got to paint her nails! That was a big deal because none of us ever paint our fingernails because you can feel it while you play. Even though it was just for a night and she removed it the next day, she was so excited, and we all understood stuff like that. As a group, you’ve had number one songs on the Classical Billboard Chart, you’ve toured around the world, and you’ve played with accomplished musicians and orchestras. What would each of you consider to be your career highlights? Desirae: Last October, we had our Carnegie Hall debut as the 5 Browns. I can’t even explain what walking out onto the stage felt like. It was so overwhelmingly powerful. During our years at Juilliard we got season tickets to Carnegie Hall as a Christmas present. So as teenagers and while we were in college we would frequently go to hear our idols play at Carnegie Hall. To be able to walk out on that stage was incredible! The audience was so warm and their applause was so powerful. It felt like our performance was elevated by playing where so many legendary artists have performed before. That was definitely a career highlight for me. Deondra, Desirae and Melody Brown Deondra: That’s exactly what I was going to say! I think another really great memory for me was four years ago when we played in China at the Beijing Grand National Theatre. It was a rare occasion on which we were each able to have our spouses join us on the trip. We went there just after the Beijing Olympics, so the city was still buzzing. It was amazing to be halfway across the world performing together and to see that the power of music transcends language barriers. Even though they couldn’t understand a word we were saying, it didn’t matter because we all shared a commonality, feeling the same emotions and having similar experiences. To realize the power of music and to relate to a different culture was pretty amazing. Melody: For me, number one was playing at Carnegie Hall, like everyone said, because while growing up I always wanted to play there. Aside from that, there are a couple others. One was when we got to play on the Tonight Show. Right before they raised the curtain, when they announced the 5 Browns, I remember us sitting behind that curtain, just looking at each other like, Oh my gosh, we’re playing on the Tonight Show! This is the greatest thing! And then the curtain went up and it was our moment to play and it was just very electric. I remember that being a pretty big highlight as far as some of the media stuff we’ve done. As far as Church performances go, a big highlight was being asked to play at President Hinckley’s 90th-birthday celebration. It wasn’t even the playing that was such a highlight; the highlight came at the end, when they had all the artists who had performed hold hands and sing “The Spirit of God,” with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing behind us. Looking out into the audience, I remember seeing President Hinckley on the front row, many general authorities, and a huge audience. The spotlight was shining on us and I felt so moved. I started getting choked up because I was just so in the moment. I’ll always remember that experience. Three years ago, your father was sentenced to ten years in prison for sexual abuse involving all of you. What made you break the silence after many years of abuse? Deondra: One of our biggest goals has always been to make sure that we do everything in our power to protect other people from being hurt. When it came down to it, we realized that the risk was too big not to approach law enforcement about what had happened to us. We talked about it as sisters, and realized we didn’t want to be held responsible for potentially not saving someone’s childhood or life through our inability to come forward. We knew the risks– that it would likely go public and that there could be some fallout that we would have to deal with. However, we couldn’t live with ourselves knowing that we put other people at risk. It was a difficult decision, but we knew it was the right thing to do. One of the most amazing things is that we’ve been able to support each other. We have our amazing brothers, who have stood by us without even a second thought, and we have the support of each other as sisters. It’s hard enough to deal with things that have happened in your own life, but it’s almost worse to know that terrible things have happened to people that you love. I think to be able to know that we have each other’s backs no matter what is something that will be important for the rest of our lives. Desirae: Our faith has really helped us cope and stay grounded; we’ve realized that our relationship with God is most important. For a long time we wanted to work things out privately as a family and through Church discipline, hoping that our father would own up to the things he had done. But eventually we felt it was important to go to law enforcement to protect other people. I feel like my faith was my guiding light during that time. I don’t know how people make these kinds of decisions without going to the Lord and petitioning Him for help. How have you found healing? Melody: Each of us has gone to the Lord with our questions, but we’ve also sought counseling. I believe the counseling aspect is very key because sometimes you can get direction and answers by going to a good counselor who can help you. Each of us has gone about finding healing differently. Both Desirae and Deondra find a lot of empowerment through their work with the Foundation for Survivors of Abuse. When they approached me about getting involved, I wasn’t so sure. At first I was going to go along with it just because I wanted to be there and I wanted to support the cause. But I realized that instead of empowering me, it brought me to a dark place over and over again. I realized, you know what, we’re different. We’re different people and we heal in different ways. For me, I just need time and distance from everything. The way I heal is through my art. I purge through my art. I also purge through nature–going out hiking and sailing with my husband. Being in a different area gets me away from the pain. Time is key. I feel much stronger than I did two or three years ago, but I believe more peace and healing will come as time goes on. I’m so grateful that my sisters were able to grant me the space and distance that I needed. Deondra: Melody has a really good point. The road that Desirae and I have taken is not for everybody. Each person who has lived through terrible things like this has a different path. In some ways they may line up and in some they may be vastly different. Each is completely valid. It’s important to be understanding of different people’s personalities, experiences, and ways of life. Something that Desirae and I have realized from traveling across the country and speaking with various victims is that although prosecuting can lead to wonderful things, it is not necessarily going to be the answer for everybody. It takes a big toll on your emotions. In the U.S. one in four girls and one in six boys are sexually abused before their their 18th birthday, so whether you realize it or not, we all know someone who has lived through it. The type of understanding and compassion that Melody was talking about is what we need to extend to everyone around us. Until you walk a day in their shoes, you never know what is really going on in homes and behind closed doors. It’s important to show compassion and love to everybody. Tell me more about your faith and the role that Mormonism played in your life all these years. Desirae: For me personally, and I think for other abuse survivors who have grown up in the Church, it can be difficult to separate the gospel from imperfect and sometimes dangerous people within the Church. I needed to separate the Mormonism that I grew up with, in the household of an abuser, from what I felt was the true gospel. I feel like I was converted as an adult even though I was baptized as an eight-year-old. My personal conversion has been life changing. It’s been a source of comfort for me when we were prosecuting and going through family upheaval. To other abuse survivors I would just like to offer hope by saying that even if your abuser is in the Mormon community, the gospel itself is still true. The Book of Mormon is still true. And the Savior’s healing is real. The Atonement is real. It is possible to separate those beliefs from whatever abuse has happened. Melody: It wasn’t until I was attending college that I really started to think about my faith. I remember sitting at a cafeteria table with a lot of my friends who were pursuing different mediums–music, dance, drama–and they started asking about Mormonism. There was this one drama student who was like, “So you’re telling me that you believe this guy found these gold plates and there were people that came over in barges to the Americas from Israel?” It was the first time that it clicked in my head that, wow, this really is a crazy story! I had grown up with it and I had been surrounded by people who also believed it. Even though I was answering his questions, I just started to really think, wow, do I actually believe this? I think that so many youth in the Church have to go through a similar experience when they realize, wait a minute, I’ve grown up with this, but do I actually believe this? Deondra, Desirae and Melody Brown For me, I had to take a little break from the Church. I didn’t compromise any of my standards, but I stepped away from the Church while I tried to figure out what I really believed. When I came back, I started to realize all the things I was missing. For instance, when I stepped away from the Church I would use Sunday to practice and prepare for Monday lessons and it seemed like my week never ended. I felt my weeks getting darker and darker until finally I was like, I can’t do this anymore! I had lost that light that was so important in my youth. I had to go through this experience of separation and trying to figure out what I believed, starting at the very beginning–do I believe in God, do I believe in a Savior, do I believe in Joseph Smith and what he saw? Gradually, my testimony started coming back. It’s taken years, but I was so glad that I went through that experience before I hit this really traumatic time in my life with my family. If I hadn’t experienced that beforehand, it would have been really hard to ask the difficult questions when I was already going through a very traumatic, horrific experience. By the time we were pursuing litigation with my father and digging up those painful memories, I felt like my testimony was very strong, so I was able to draw upon deep wells of spirituality. Although I questioned why these things happened to me, in the end, I knew the gospel was true and I was able to hold on to that anchor. It really got me through that huge dark part of my life. Thanks for sharing. I’ve become aware of a few women in my own ward who are also victims of abuse. What advice do you have for those of us who haven’t experienced abuse, but who may know someone who has? How can we minister to them? Deondra: I’ve had several close friends–some who were even friends while the abuse was happening–who didn’t know. Usually, nobody knows when abuse is happening. My friends have since approached me and asked, “What can I do? Have I said anything that’s made it more difficult?” I think the biggest thing is to just keep doing what you’re doing. Be a listening ear, reach out to people and let them know that you really care. You don’t have to have the perfect thing to say, because nobody really knows what to say. Most of us aren’t professionals who deal with this every day. But, just be a friend. There will be days when your friend wants to talk about it, when it feels helpful to talk things through. And there will be other days when your friend doesn’t want to think about it or talk about it at all, and that’s okay. I’ve realized that the people close to me in my life can see where I’m at any given day. I’ll bring it up if I’m interested in talking about it, and if I’m not then I won’t. One of the most important things is to just love people unconditionally and realize there are going to be days when they don’t know what they feel, and other days when they’re in the midst of a lot of trauma inside their head. Just be there and show support and love. Desirae: Regarding the Church environment, there’s a great talk by Chieko Okazaki, titled “Healing From Sexual Abuse.” She talks about how we should all assume that in every Relief Society class, in every Primary class, and in every sacrament meeting, there are people currently going through abuse, people who have been abused, and people who will be abused, so we should keep that in mind as we’re teaching lessons about chastity or forgiveness. It’s better to be educated about these things rather than go into a situation and maybe say something that could hurt people. I think her talk pinpoints how to be aware of those individuals in the Church and how to help them. Even if you don’t know who they are or even if they don’t approach you about it, keep them in mind as you’re speaking to the collective. Melody: Always remember that there are so many silent sufferers in your meetings who don’t speak up about what has happened to them. It’s not always obvious who those people are; they don’t wear it on their sleeve. In Relief Society, a lot of people share comments about the hardships they’ve gone through, but remember there are many more people in the room going through hard things who don’t say anything. I always think about them and how a lesson might relate to them whenever I teach Relief Society or when I’m giving a talk. Desirae and Deondra, you’ve started the Foundation for Survivors of Abuse. That’s pretty amazing. Can you tell us more about it? Deondra: When our sexual abuse went public, it was very overwhelming. We started to receive emails from people reaching out to us and telling us their own stories, and we realized that there was a big problem in the United States, in particular with statute of limitation laws for sexual abuse crimes. Depending on what state you live in, the opportunity to come forward and press charges against a perpetrator can expire before a victim is ready to come forward. The average time is at least 15 or 16 years before victims will come forward after their abuse. It often takes decades to feel confident and secure before you can start looking at the memories that you’ve cast aside in a dark closet somewhere. After receiving all these emails we started to realize how blessed we were to be living in a state where the laws had changed so we could prosecute our father over 15 years after the abuse had happened. We researched various charities and realized there was no other foundation that supported what we wanted to do, which was change statute of limitation legislation across the country. Desirae and I talked to each other, and as overwhelming as it seemed to start a foundation, it felt like it was the right thing to do. It’s been amazing to talk with legislators both on national and state levels and share our stories of not only what we’ve lived through, but how we were able to prosecute over 15 years after the abuse. Telling them how many millions of people don’t have that opportunity is heartbreaking. Seeing the response that we’ve had so far has been overwhelming. I look at my almost four-year-old daughter, and I think, hopefully, it’s a safer place for her when she grows up. We do this for little kids so that they can grow up in a world where if something terrible like this did happen, at least they and other victims would know they are protected by the law in their state and country. Unfortunately, too many people have these terrible crimes in common and it’s difficult for us when we see how many people have been hurt similarly to us. I’ve felt this overwhelming sense of community and compassion from strangers because we have all lived through terrible things. We’re all standing by supporting each other in whatever way we can to help lead change. You’ve all come a long way, both in your personal and professional lives. How do your spouses support you? Desirae: Our spouses knew what they were getting into, marrying professional musicians. My husband is also a professional musician–he’s a concert violinist–so we definitely understand each other and support each other. That understanding and support is what we bought into when we got married. Now that I have two kids, life is more complicated but so much more wonderful. We just have to schedule things out and look further in advance and plan for things, but life is so full. One of our Juilliard teachers explained to us that most classical-performing touring musicians don’t have rich family lives, just to make sure that we knew what we were getting into. Because of this, the five of us have made very conscious decisions to limit our schedules and how long we are gone on tour, and to not perform on Sundays. Our management wasn’t super thrilled to hear this, but nonetheless has helped us schedule in such a way that we can have a family life. It’s tricky but not impossible. Our families and our relationships with each other as siblings always come first. We always check in with each other to make sure everybody’s happy, and if they’re not we see what adjustments can be made, because if everybody’s happy then we can continue to play together. Can you each give us an idea of what a typical week looks like for you? Deondra: I wear a different hat depending on what hour of the day it is. My daughter is now four, so I work around her preschool schedule. I also make time to teach piano lessons most afternoons because I love it. Additionally, I have my own practicing to do and I have to keep up with the many tasks of running the Foundation. A typical week for me is going from spending time on my computer–trying to catch up on emails both for the 5 browns and the Foundation–to jumping back and forth on the piano, whether practicing on my own or teaching. My daughter has a very keen sense of when I have not spent enough time with her and she’ll come and tell me it’s time for her now. I try as much as I can to make time for her. She loves to read so we read and color a lot. She’s been such a wonderful source of happiness for my husband and me. Sometimes I get super overwhelmed–I tend to get a little more stressed out–so I have to learn to balance life as much as I can and accept that I can’t do everything. I have very full days, but full of such wonderful things. The gratification I receive from the work that the Foundation is doing makes it so worth the effort and the stress and the emotional toll it can take. The wonderful things that we get from performing together, like seeing children light up when they hear classical music, are also very gratifying. To be able to teach young children piano, to see that look in their eye when they really get something, when you’re watching them fall in love with classical music, is so invigorating. And when my husband looks at me and tells me that I have his support and that he’s proud to stand beside me in all of my projects and endeavors it means more than anything else really could. Melody: Number one in my week is practicing the piano. Some days I practice for two hours, which is not that much, and some days when it gets really intense I can practice anywhere from four to eight hours. It’s just a matter of keeping up with our regular demands and what’s coming up on the touring and album schedule. If we have an album coming up I do hardcore practicing every day and we spend every waking moment trying to rehearse together, and that definitely takes priority. Right now things are slightly lighter, even though we’re getting ready for another tour with new music and practicing is important. Then number two, I am the techy one of the group, so I manage the website and everything that has to do with our online presence. In the first few years we performed, our record label was really getting us out there in the video realm and investing a lot of money in us, but those days of record labels taking on all of that are over. Artists now have to put these things together on their own. I’m the creative director in the group, so right now I’m immersed in putting footage together for our music videos. All of my time right now outside of practicing is going toward all of the techy stuff, which is pretty hardcore right now. On top of all that, obviously my time with my husband is very important and valuable so we try to make as much time for each other as possible. I’m the techy one in our relationship, too, because he has his own business and I help him with websites, etc. My life outside of the keyboard seems to be at a different keyboard with a screen! Desirae: I have a one-year-old and also a five-month-old, so I’ve been adjusting to life with two tiny ones. I don’t even set my alarm anymore because I know when they are going to wake me up. My husband and I are both musicians, so when we’re not performing we work from home. I try to squeeze in practicing between feedings, going to the park, playing, and keeping my children clean and healthy. I tend to practice in 30-minute-to-one-hour segments and I try to get four to eight of those in in a day, depending on the upcoming deadline. I also check in with Deondra through emails and conference calls for the Foundation and for the 5 Browns. When you’re young and wanting to be a pianist, you don’t realize that you’ll be running a business. It’s one of the things they don’t teach you at music school. That part does take time, although I am not as involved to the degree that Deondra and Melody are. Right now, Deondra and Melody do a lot more running of the 5 Browns than I do. They’ve allowed me some time to make adjustments with being postpartum and having two kids. In that way, it’s nice to work with family. They’ve all been very supportive of having babies and trying to make adjustments in our work schedule. When we’re on tour, it’s a totally different schedule. On tour we travel every day to a different city, staying in hotels. We wake up late, eat a late lunch/breakfast, go to a soundcheck, go back for a nap, then eat dinner and play the concert and then do it again in a couple days. Actually, when we’re on tour in many ways it’s much more streamlined and simple than when we’re at home. Deondra: I agree. Except the difference for Desirae and me is that as moms we have to switch to being alert and awake at night time, which is difficult for me! When I’m at home during the regular day I’m exhausted by eight or nine o’clock at night. On tour, that’s right in the middle of when we’re supposed to be at our peak. Depending upon which week out of the month it is, I’m supposed to go from waking up early with a child to having to stay awake late. Thank you so much to all of you for giving us some insight into your lives! Is there anything else you’d like to add? Desirae: I want to reiterate that our priorities are our relationship with God, our relationship with our families, and our relationship to music, in that order. It’s nice to know that we work with people who understand and support that. I’m so grateful for the blessings that the Church and the gospel have brought into my life. My husband and I have a very old old friend, he’s like 90 something, and my husband asked him once, “Do you think it’s all [Mormonism] true?” And he said, “You know, I don’t know, but it has brought me a really happy life, so if I die and it’s not true, well, I lived a really happy life.” I don’t know if I totally agree with that, but the Church does bring so much happiness. It’s nice as classical musicians to have such grounding in our lives, with our kids and our spouses sharing those values. That’s been a huge blessing. Deondra: Now that my daughter is a Sunbeam, I’m starting to see the gospel through her eyes. I see how excited she is to go to church every week. Even if I’m sick and in bed, she still remembers it’s Sunday and that it’s time to go to church. When she comes home she is so excited to talk about the lessons she learned about Jesus. I get to see the gospel through her eyes and I see how much it adds to our family and the good that comes from it. Hearing her say her sweet little prayers–so simple and pure–is one of the biggest highlights of my day. Having that in our home is a big blessing in my life. At A Glance Name: Deondra Brown Location: Salt Lake City, UT Age: 34 Marital status: married (11 years and counting) Children: A 4 year old Occupation: member of The 5 Browns, President of the Foundation for Survivors of Abuse (FSA), piano teacher Schools Attended: The Juilliard School Favorite Hymn: “Abide With Me: ‘Tis Eventide” On The Web: www.the5browns.com and www.survivingabuse.org Name: Desirae Brown Location: New York, NY Age: 35 Marital status: Married for 12 years to Bryan Hernandez-Luch, violinist Children: 2 children. Poppy, 2 years and Rowan, 8 months Occupation: Pianist with The 5 Browns and Vice President, The Foundation for Survivors of Abuse Schools Attended: The Juilliard School, BM 2001, MM 2003 Favorite Hymn: “Be Still My Soul” On The Web: www.the5browns.com and www.survivingabuse.org Name: Melody Brown Location: Salt Lake City, UT Age: 30 Marital status: Married since 2007 Children: none Occupation: Pianist with The 5 Browns Schools Attended: The Juilliard School Favorite Hymn: “If You Could Hie To Kolob” On The Web: www.the5browns.com and ThreadEthic.com Interview by Linda Yamamoto.

At the age of 20, Kenna Christensen was newly married in the temple and beginning what she thought was an eternal marriage. Nine months later, she found herself divorced and shattered from the disappointment. Though it wasn’t easy, Kenna found healing through counseling, blogging, and a deepened sense of spirituality. Tell me about your upbringing. I grew up in Salt Lake City and then we moved to Spanish Fork, where I attended high school. I’m very social and I was on a dance team. I have a great family; they’ve always been very active in the Church and they’ve always supported and strengthened me. What did you do after you graduated from high school? I started working. At the time my parents were living in New Zealand, so I also went out there a few times for a few months. When I was 19, I met someone and we got married about nine months later. We were married for nine months and then he left me. How did you meet your ex-husband? I met him one night at a dance in Provo (Provo dances are really good dances) and we started dating from there. I was very young and all I can say is, I was infatuated and he was a returned missionary and had all the qualifications. At that time in my life, I wasn’t sure what questions to ask and what things to look for; I just went along with it. Ultimately, we got married in the temple. Once we were married, we had our ups and downs, but nothing to the point of getting a divorce. We were very poor; he was trying to get through school and I was working. I had heard that marriage can be difficult, especially the first year, so I was just thinking we were having our moments. But then I got a text one morning that he no longer wanted to be married and was leaving me. And that was that. I was shocked, completely blindsided. There was no working through it after that; it was 100% over. I didn’t understand what was happening. I grew up watching my parents and I knew that they would never get a divorce. I believed that marriage was forever, especially temple marriage. When it wasn’t forever, it completely turned my world upside down. That’s when I started writing and started a blog. You were very young when you got married. Was that a difficult decision to make? Not at all. I love Provo–I still live here–but my friends were all getting married, and that’s just what you do in Provo, and often it’s at a young age. That works great for some people and they’re super happy, but I wasn’t prepared in the way that I should have been. I didn’t know what to expect. Did marriage meet your expectations at first? Oh yeah, there were great points throughout our marriage. Experiencing everything for the first time was exciting. I thought I was creating the beginnings of an eternal family. I had an eternal companion and we had made these eternal covenants and commitments together. I loved being married. It’s interesting for people to hear me say that now because I’m divorced. They assume I’m bitter about marriage, but I value marriage so much more because of what I’ve been though. I don’t think the Lord intends for people to go through divorce. I don’t think it’s in anyone’s plan, and it was really hard for me to wrap my head around. I think the Lord gives people opportunities to make right choices and to follow through, but people still have their agency. They will do with it what they want and the Lord isn’t going to get in the way of that. Kenna Christensen How did you cope at first? I didn’t. It was awful. My body just shut down. I got physically sick and was in and out of the hospital; my body was just so traumatized. I couldn’t stop throwing up, it was just one thing after another. Ultimately, I think it was just the result of stress–my body manifests stress physically. I was a mess. After our marriage ended, my parents, who were still living in New Zealand, offered to fly me out there. So I ran away to New Zealand for eight months and it was the best thing in the world for me. Kenna Christensen Tell me about those months in New Zealand. Did you learn how to deal with the stress and disappointment? I went to therapy through LDS Family Services in New Zealand, which was a huge blessing. I had so much support. People in New Zealand are incredible; they’re such a kind people. I spent most of my days reading scriptures and Church books on the beach. I couldn’t have asked for a better place to heal; it was a huge blessing. My dad always says, “I think it was worth it for me to go on that assignment so that you could go there and heal.” It was exactly where I needed to be. I can honestly say it took about a year for me to feel like I was going to be okay and for me to regain my hope and realize that I had a bright future. Everyone has a different grieving process; I think mine took longer than most, considering the length of time I was married. Tell me about the therapy that writing on your blog provided for you. I started my blog when I was in New Zealand. It was a way for me to find peace with what was going on. I love to write, and writing helped so much. Most of my writing was just bearing testimony of what I know and what I have felt. Putting that on paper and actually getting those feelings out was very helpful. I think that’s why bearing your testimony is so powerful: when you express it, it becomes so much more real. It was very therapeutic for me. Honestly, I didn’t think anyone was reading my blog, but then I started getting feedback from people all over the world saying they were going through similar experiences. I’ve made so many amazing friends–I’ve even had people take the missionary discussions because of my blog. It’s been such a fun adventure. I’ve gotten so many emails from students at BYU telling me they haven’t told people about their divorce. They’re ashamed of it; they feel it’s completely taboo. I have found so many young people who have gone through divorce; I think I have more divorced friends than anyone in the world! It’s been so helpful for me to have a support group. Tell me about the people who have investigated the Church as a result of your blog. The first time it happened, this woman emailed me and said, “I’ve been reading your blog, and I’m going through a very similar situation. I can’t find this hope that you talk about. Where are you finding this faith?” I told her about my beliefs and the gospel and she said that she would like to know more and meet with the missionaries. That was so worth it! Tell me about your spiritual journey. I grew up in a Mormon family and was active, but I wouldn’t say that I had a solid testimony. I believed that my parents were good people and I believed that what they believed was true. It was just a way of life for me; that’s what everyone did. What changed my testimony was going through the temple. I will forever be grateful for my marriage because I have been able to attend the temple. When I was married, that’s actually when the gospel fell into place for me and started becoming so important to me. All of a sudden I realized, “I have a family and I want this family to be centered around the gospel and have a firm foundation.” My testimony grew throughout my marriage. Kenna Christensen How have you felt the Lord’s presence in your life? My divorce has been the best thing that has happened to me. I never once was upset with Heavenly Father. The second I found out my husband was leaving me, I was on my knees. The first few months my knees were literally blue and purple because I was always on my knees–I had bruises! That was the only source of strength I had, and it was the only source I needed. It wasn’t that I was gaining strength through learning all these doctrines; my testimony and my strength were founded on the love I know my Heavenly Father and Savior have for me. It was just such a growing experience for me. After eight months in New Zealand, you went back to Provo. Was it hard to go back to a singles ward? At first I went to my family ward in Utah. My bishop was like, you might want to consider attending a singles ward. I did, and it was awful. I was terrified of all the guys in the ward; I thought they were all terrible people. At one point my bishop called me in and was like, Kenna, you need to be nicer to all the guys in the ward. I was just projecting what I had gone through onto everyone and it wasn’t good. It was hard for me to start dating again. For some people it’s not so bad, but it was very difficult for me. What advice would you give to other young people considering marriage? In my case, I wasn’t spiritually grounded. I was worthy to attend the temple, but I didn’t have the spiritual maturity that I have now. So I would say, number one, make sure you are completely grounded in the gospel. Number two, realize that you may have different timing than others; your plan is different than other people’s. Number three, don’t settle. There’s this strange culture here that we’re running out of time and getting old, and we’re not going to find anyone. It’s terrible! I watch my friends go through it; everyone feels this desperation to get married. But the Lord has a plan for us and He has our timing set; we need to trust that. What advice do you have for people who have recently gotten out of a difficult marriage? I would say, the Lord is aware of you and your situation. He has the ability to turn any tragedy into something beautiful. If we seek for His help and guidance, that’s exactly what He’ll do. I would also say honor your grief. That was something a friend of mine told me during my grief. Our feelings matter. It’s okay to hurt and it’s okay not to be okay. It’s hard, but it’s a part of mortality. What have you learned about yourself? I learned how committed I can be to something. It was really good for me to see how committed I was to working on a marriage, and to really realize that I would have done anything to save it. If at any point he had come back and said, “I’m so sorry, let’s do this again,” I would have done it again. I would have tried. That was really helpful for me to learn about myself. I also learned that forgiveness was harder for me than I would have liked it to be. I thought I was a terrible person because I still had hard feelings. It’s a process and I had to learn that Christ loves everyone and wants everyone to return to Him. That was very humbling and very hard for me. How is life now? Life is good after divorce! My future is bright. I am in school, I have a great job, and believe it or not, I’m dating someone. He is wonderful. He’s just one more evidence to me that the Lord is aware of me. My divorce has been the biggest learning curve, but also the biggest blessing in my life. It’s prepared me for the things that I’m going through now. My dad recently gave me a blessing and in it he said my divorce was perfectly tailored for everything that I needed to learn at that time. I truly believe that. It’s been a blessing. At A Glance Name: Kenna Christensen Location: Provo, UT Age: 23 Marital status: Divorced! Occupation: Instructor at a substance-abuse home for adolescents Schools Attended: Spanish Fork High School, BYU Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: “Be Still My Soul” On The Web: www.kenna-hope.blogspot.com Interview by Linda Yamamoto.

Ashlee Birk was living a simple life as the mother of five children and wife to a successful lawyer. One cold night in March 2011, her worst nightmare came true when she found out that not only had her husband been having an affair with a married woman, but he had been murdered by the woman’s husband. Grief-ridden, angry, and hurt, Ashlee learned how to pick up the pieces and put her life back together again. How did you meet your late husband, Emmett? We met in 2003 through a mutual friend who worked with me at the gym at Utah State University. We hung out every day and got engaged a few months later and got married a few months after that. It was really fast; I was barely 21 years old when we got married. Tell me about those first few years of marriage and family life. The first few years of our marriage were awesome. I felt like we were a great team. We were both in school so it was a constant balancing act, but it never felt like work. What we had was great. We had twins right after we got married–they threw us into parenting but we loved it. I couldn’t picture my life any differently; it was about as perfect as I’d imagined as a kid. I felt like we were best friends. Everything I did, I did for him, and I felt like everything he did, he did for me. How was your relationship later on in your marriage? A few years before he passed, Emmett was accepted into the law program at Gonzaga University. By then, we had three children so we moved our family from Logan, Utah to a suburb of Spokane, Washington, about an hour away from Emmett’s law school. During those years he had to be gone a lot, which made me feel disconnected from him, but I always anticipated that after he graduated things would get better. Those few years of school were really hard for our family; I felt like I was parenting alone. But I was willing to do it. After graduation, we moved to Meridian, Idaho, and I felt like something changed. He became this great attorney but forgot about the best parts of our life. He was all about making money. It was always for the good of our family, but we were just waiting around for him to be part of it. I was happy, though; I enjoyed being a mom and was willing to do anything for my husband. Looking back now, I see that there was distance between us, but I didn’t feel the distance very powerfully until about a month before he died. At that time, it was almost like he was another person: he was mean and angry and you could tell he was hiding something, but there was no clue as to what, why, or how. I think he was finally being tormented by his bad choices and it was making him push away all the good things in his life. I learned later that he had been having affairs with various women throughout his time at Gonzaga, and then for about a year with one particular woman before he died. Ashlee Birk and Her Family What were the events leading up to Emmett’s death? Emmett had a paralegal, who believed in him and showed up on his doorstep one day and wanted to start a criminal law firm. I think he just ate out of the palm of her hand and was like, okay, here we go! I didn’t know at the time but I learned after his death that they began an intimate relationship about the same time they started their business. The paralegal’s husband, Rob, was onto all of it. I was pregnant and then I was dealing with a brand-new baby, so I didn’t know what was going on. Rob did his research and found out about his wife and Emmett’s affair. On March 11, 2011, he decided to take a gun and confront Emmett. The fight ended with Rob putting a bullet in Emmett’s head and shooting him in the heart. That night, I was alone with the kids and I remember praying really hard for Emmett to wake up. I prayed that he would see me and the kids and feel of our love. But he never woke up again. It was the night that my greatest fears came true. I found out that not only was he gone, but that he had been unfaithful to me for a long time. The fact that he was gone was really hard to deal with, but feeling that I wasn’t enough for him has been my biggest battle. It was a really hard reality to face. At that time we had been married for seven years and had five children. I can only imagine the grief and heartache. How did you deal with everything at first? The week following his death, I was stuck on anger. I was so embarrassed–the one thing I thought I had was this perfect marriage. I was so angry. I wanted his clothes out of our house. I was like, “I don’t want to see him anymore, I don’t want to see his stuff, I hate him!” That week was actually one of the easiest out of the weeks that followed because I was just surviving on anger. But then grief set in, and until I felt grief in my own life, I had no idea how overwhelming it is. Although my husband had done all this bad stuff, he was still mine–he was still my husband and a father that we still needed. I was mad at him because of his lies, but then the despair would hit, and it was almost unbearable. The weeks after his death were pretty much a conglomerate of bipolar emotions that I had no control over. Ashlee Birk and Her Children What was your healing process that first year? The first year I was on autopilot. I was a zombie. I went through the motions of life, but I didn’t let myself feel a lot of the time. If I let myself feel, it was so overwhelming that I wouldn’t want to get up in the morning. I think the second year was harder, because the trial occurred during the second year and we had to deal with the facts and the reality that this was never going to go away. I was a mess. I struggled with depression and anxiety; any time I would go somewhere I was scared something would happen to us. My kids had a constant fear of the unknown. Fear defined our family. Everything was so unknown, especially with the trial. We didn’t know what to expect. How did you deal with your own grief while still dealing with the daily responsibility of raising kids and helping them with their emotions? I was so overwhelmed. My mom stayed for about a month, but after she left it was just me and the kids, and that was so scary and so hard. So I hired my cousin to come live with us and be a nanny for the summer. Basically, I paid her to hang out with us so I wouldn’t have to be alone. I met my husband, Shawn, who I’m married to now, at the end of the summer when my cousin was still there. We got married a little while after that. There was someone there to help me all the time. Amidst all this pain, you got remarried. Wow! How was your first year of marriage? I don’t think we had any clue what we were getting into. We both felt really strongly about it; I just had faith that we were doing the right thing. But some days were so hard. He had one child and I had five, but I couldn’t even handle myself, let alone create this blended family. There were other days when he was the one who got me through hard times. During the trial he didn’t come with me; we hardly talked the whole month of the trial. But I was able to come home and not say a word and feel safe. Rob got out of jail for nine months prior to the trail, which was really scary for me, so having Shawn in our home and knowing that if Rob showed up at our door I wouldn’t be alone was a great relief. I think Heavenly Father had a great plan. Each day there was a reason why I was supposed to be married to Shawn. Even though I wasn’t prepared and I wasn’t a great wife for a long time, Heavenly Father blessed me with him. Ashlee Birk and Her Family You said Rob got out of jail? Yes. There was a judge who was visiting for the day when one of Rob’s court dates came up. The judge offered him a bond of a million dollars and his parents ended up paying it, and he got out of jail for nine months, starting a couple of weeks after he killed Emmett. I was by myself; it was just pure panic and chaos. We didn’t know what his agenda was, who he was, really anything about him, and he was just walking around the street two neighborhoods away. Have you had contact with the other family? If so, was that an important step for you? About six months after everything happened, I ran into the woman Emmett was having an affair with. I didn’t say a word to her. I told myself, “She doesn’t care about you, so just walk away.” I was at Rob‘s trial every day. His mom and sister were also there. The day we were waiting for the verdict to be announced, we were all having lunch at a cafe that had just opened up at the bottom of the courthouse. I went over to fill up my drink and I swung around and his sister was there. I hadn’t said anything to his family throughout the trial, but I got this overwhelming feeling that I should say something to her. I told her, “I don’t know if we’re supposed to talk to each other, but I just want your family to know that I know you’re hurting too. I’m really sorry that all this happened and sorry for what you’re going through.” She started crying, and we just cried together. It was a really good experience for me to step into their shoes. He was their brother and their son and they still loved him. What was the verdict that day? Rob got second-degree murder and 30 years in jail. He’ll have the option of parole the year that Tytus, my youngest, gets out of high school, but that will depend on his behavior. How did your faith evolve? I’ve always had faith, I’ve always known that Heavenly Father answers my prayers, I’ve always seen His hand in my life. But it wasn’t until I went through this total low point where all I had left with was Him that I realized how much He cared and was there for me. I’ve always known about the Atonement and known that the Atonement is there for me when I make a mistake. Whenever someone would wrong me, I knew I needed to forgive them. But as I have gone through this tragedy, in which three people wronged me on so many levels, my faith has helped me understand the Atonement on a much deeper level. The Atonement is there even if you’re just struggling with the fact that the story you’re living is different from the one you had planned. The Atonement is also there to help you forgive and feel compassion for a man who made a really bad choice. I think that’s been my greatest blessing, to understand the Atonement and the power that it can have on those hard days when it feels like your faith has been flat in the dirt for weeks and someone is just dragging you. If you pray for help, Heavenly Father will send you a little light, and He will send you the right person to say the right thing. Can you share an example of when you felt a strong feeling of comfort? Sure, I have so many! This is the first one that popped into my mind: One day, I was down at Emmett’s old office meeting with detectives. I remember being shut off from my emotions. I was like, “I’m not going to cry again! I’m not going to worry about the family pictures that I never found, I’m just going to get down to business and I’m not going to feel.” I purposefully went down to the office and went about my things, signed the papers and left. On the way home, I was like, “Okay, I’m still not feeling anything.” It was almost a feeling of panic, like, “I don’t feel at all!” I walked in my house and my kids were all around and I could not even feel their love; I could barely even feel their hugs and kisses. I still felt like a zombie. My baby was in bed and I could hear him being fussy on the monitor, so I ran up to his room and picked him up and he fell back to sleep on my shoulder. I still couldn’t feel his love but I just kept rocking him while he slept. Then, all of a sudden, the music that I had playing on his iPod turned and the next song was “Footprints in the Sand.” I remember almost feeling Heavenly Father pick me up and say, “You know what? I’m right here. You can’t feel me, but I’m right here.” I just bawled through the whole song. I sang the words to my baby and I felt like Heavenly Father was talking straight to me, like He was saying, “I’m not leaving you alone. This is hard, and this is not the life you wanted, but this is where you are and I’m still here with you.” What a wonderful experience. I know faith doesn’t fix everything, but it sounds like it’s buoyed you up when you’ve needed it. I think that’s definitely something I’ve learned about the Atonement: it doesn’t necessarily fix the pain that we feel, but it can somewhat take it away. What advice do you have for women who are dealing with hard trials? I would say, believe in yourself. Every trial enables us to discover our own strength. We can turn to Heavenly Father and we can turn to the gospel, but we can’t find out who we are through anyone else. No amount of makeup or clothes or kind words will change the way you view yourself. Even though we aren’t perfect, Heavenly Father sees our beauty and He sees our willingness to work hard. He sees everything that no one else does. I wish women who are going through hard times would see themselves as God sees them. If we could do that, we wouldn’t doubt ourselves or question our abilities or our worth. How are you doing these days? Are you happy? Today we’re still fighting some of the same struggles: fear and the temptation to not feel good about ourselves. I watch my kids and notice that sometimes they clam up when we’re in groups and they cling to me a bit. But I feel like every day we’re becoming more comfortable in our own skin and with our own story. We’re embracing the fact that the road we traveled to get here wasn’t smooth, but we’ve really come together because of that. Every day I feel a little stronger and a little more able to embrace my new normal. How is being married again? You know what? We work dang hard! We have our challenges just like every couple does, but I feel like we both know exactly what we want and we’re willing to fight through all the hard days, because the good days have been amazing. We both have been through a lot and we both know exactly where we want to be. We set a lot of goals, and I feel like I have a good teammate and partner to reach those with. What’s your faith like today? My faith is everything. I sometimes feel fear about the future and about myself creep into my heart, but my faith is stronger than it’s ever been. I know Heavenly Father believes in me and He gives me strength. Sometimes, when I go to help someone else who has turned to me to help them through their struggle, I feel Heavenly Father’s love even more. I’m able to stand a little taller and believe in myself a little more and forgive. I think my faith is on course to be where I want it to be someday. Is there anything else you’d like to add? I just want people to look for the good in every day. Look for the light of Christ in everyone you meet. Even those people who wrong us have good in them that Heavenly Father sees. And I think with His help we can see it too. It doesn’t mean we have to trust or let that person into our lives, but to be able to view them as Heavenly Father does is true empathy and the only way we can ultimately find the ability to forgive. Amazing, thank you. At A Glance Name: Ashlee Birk Location: Meridian, ID Age: 31 Marital status: Widowed / Remarried Children: Bailey(9), Bostyn (9), Jordyn (7), Teage (7), Kaleeya (5), Tytus (3) Occupation: Mom Schools Attended: Lone Peak High School, Utah State University Languages Spoken at Home: English Favorite Hymn: “I Know That My Redeemer Lives” On The Web: www.themomentswestand.com Interview by Linda Yamamoto.